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Author Topic: two dot or not two dot...  (Read 5618 times)

Offline Childbride

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two dot or not two dot...
« on: August 10, 2007, 02:30:11 PM »
shiner and i noticed this week that the EA20SDL has double inlays not only at the 12th but also at the 7th fret.  

intrigued, we looked at all the guitars in the house and found her to be the only one.  

significance?  i'm not complaining in the slightest, makes it a lot easier to regain my bearings when i misstep... why do some guitars have extra inlays and is it a significant characteristic of certain guitars?

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Offline millenium

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2007, 02:50:35 PM »
It is common to see two dot on the 12 fret... but on the 7th that intrigue me... good question..

Some models have very cool inlay on the 12 fret. For exemple, my D2003S (2003) inscription, my fender 12-string as two snow flakes on the 12 fret, my Ibanez EW20ASE super infinity logo that goes from the 11 through the 13th fret etc, etc...

Fretboard inlays are used not only as decorations, but also as the markers to determine particular frets on fretboard. They are most commonly shaped like dots (circles), diamond shapes, parallelograms, isosceles trapezoids, shark fins or large blocks in between the frets. Dots are usually considered the easiest to make (and thus, somewhat less expensive), as making a dot only requires drilling a round hole and glueing a pre-cut piece of inlay material into it.
The most popular one involves single inlays on the 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, double inlays on the 12th, single inlays on the 15th, 17th, 19th, and 21st, and if present, double inlays on the 24th. Pros of such scheme include its symmetry about the 12th fret and symmetry of every half (0-12 and 12-24) about the 7th and 19th frets. However, playing these frets, for example, on E string would yield notes E, G, A, B, C# that barely make a complete musical mode by themselves.

Abalone dot


And, some guitars the spot are on the top of the neck not on the fret board...

Usely, classical/nylon string guitar did'nt have dot !!!
« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 02:59:32 PM by millenium »
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Offline RGG Music

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2007, 03:00:10 PM »
That's strange CB.  I think those 2 dots on the 7th would throw me off which isn't very hard to do.
Come to think of it, why can't they just put a big 7 there?

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Offline 1 Cal

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2007, 04:14:51 PM »
Hey Childbride

I've asked so many people why guitar fretboard markers are where they are... but no-one I've asked is able to give me an answer that satisfies me.  I'm sure if I understood music theory properly I might be able to guess, but I don't.

Fretless Johnny, WHERE ARE YOU when we need you? [:(!]

The closest I've got is this Wikipedia link.  But, thinking it out for myself the double dot is always on the Octave (12th fret) and the next most significant interval I can think of is the Fifth (7th fret)... so maybe that's it. [:I]

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Offline evenkeel

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2007, 05:04:28 PM »
I'm sure FJ wil have some music theory answer, but I also suspect plain old tradition is part of the answer.

I've seen guitars with dots on the first fret (plus the usual 5th, 7th, etc.), dots on the side of the neck rather than the fret board and with no dots anywhere.  The no dot, plain jane thing always looked kind of naked to me.
 

Offline Squint

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2007, 05:16:07 PM »
Think that's funny, look at the fretmarker dots on the side of the neck of the EA20s, also. Both my six and recently reset 12 string have two dots on the 7th and 12th on the side of the neck and none of my other Washies have that.
 They both play like buttah and are still my first choice for live gigging.



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« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 05:16:36 PM by Squint »
'93 Washburn J-9 Washington
'97 Washburn J-9 Washington  
'02 Washburn J28SCEDL Cumberland
'90 Washburn EA20YBR Festival
'83 Washburn D66SW Prairie Song Custom
'04 Washburn D104SCE  
'04 D'Aquisto CENTURA
'05 D'Aquisto CENTURA
(both violin burst)
'77 Electra X-410 Jazz Strad
'77 Electra Maple Pro (autographed by Bill Nelson)
'04 Aria PE SPL DLX SD
'82 Aria ProII Thor Sound 600
'05 Agile 2500-12
'06 Agile TC-630
Fender P-bass


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Offline just strum

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2007, 07:17:01 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Childbride

shiner and i noticed this week that the EA20SDL has double inlays not only at the 12th but also at the 7th fret.  

intrigued, we looked at all the guitars in the house and found her to be the only one.  

significance?  i'm not complaining in the slightest, makes it a lot easier to regain my bearings when i misstep... why do some guitars have extra inlays and is it a significant characteristic of certain guitars?

2006 Washburn WD55SW Augusta
2006 Washburn J28S12DL
EA20SDL
JR-1 Yamaha
ANOTHER PROUD MEMBER OF THE CUMBERLAND BRIGADE!



I was going to charge more for the extra dot, but since you are family...

I tried googling the reason for double inlay on the 7th, but so far no luck.  If I find something I will post it here.

Strum

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Offline Squint

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2007, 07:32:15 PM »
Think it might have something to do with chiming at certain frets?

'93 & '97 Washburn J-9 Washington
'88 Washburn J-6 (For Sale)
'01 Washburn J28S12DL Cumberland 12-str. (For Sale)
'02 Washburn J28SCEDL Cumberland
'90 Washburn EA20YBR Festival
'83 Washburn D66SW Prairie Song Custom
'04 Washburn D104SCE  
'04 & '05 D'Aquisto CENTURA (violin burst)
'77 Electra Jazz Strad
'77 Electra Maple Pro (autographed by Bill Nelson)
'04 Aria PE SPL DLX SD
'82 Aria ProII Thor Sound 600
'05 Agile 2500-12
'06 Agile TC-630
Fender P-bass


ANOTHER PROUD MEMBER OF THE CUMBERLAND BRIGADE!

Why weren't you REALLY at WAGjam - Vegas, baby???!

www.soundclick.com/thecoastalcowboys
www.myspace.com/thecoastalcowboys
'93 Washburn J-9 Washington
'97 Washburn J-9 Washington  
'02 Washburn J28SCEDL Cumberland
'90 Washburn EA20YBR Festival
'83 Washburn D66SW Prairie Song Custom
'04 Washburn D104SCE  
'04 D'Aquisto CENTURA
'05 D'Aquisto CENTURA
(both violin burst)
'77 Electra X-410 Jazz Strad
'77 Electra Maple Pro (autographed by Bill Nelson)
'04 Aria PE SPL DLX SD
'82 Aria ProII Thor Sound 600
'05 Agile 2500-12
'06 Agile TC-630
Fender P-bass


ANOTHER PROUD MEMBER OF THE CUMBERLAND BRIGADE!

www.soundclick.com/thecoastalcowboys
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Offline Pike

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2007, 07:43:05 PM »
All my Martins have and have had double dots both 7th and 12th frets.
 

Offline Childbride

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2007, 08:47:01 PM »
i like 1 Cal's observation about the 5th.

i think it to be valid...

i am interested if anyone finds further information on the subject!

[giggle] strum, thanks for not charging for the extra dot!

2006 Washburn WD55SW Augusta
2006 Washburn J28S12DL
EA20SDL
JR-1 Yamaha
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« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 08:50:35 PM by Childbride »

Offline Childbride

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2007, 09:05:36 PM »
RGG, going to put neon numbers on all the frets of my Yamaha.

Squint, beauties.  [:D][:D]

best to you and yours.  [:)]

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« Last Edit: August 10, 2007, 09:11:14 PM by Childbride »

Offline 1 Cal

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2007, 07:20:04 AM »
I think Squint's cracked it. [8D]

OPEN STRING HARMONICS
1st harmonic (fret 12)
2nd harmonic (fret 7)
3rd harmonic (fret 5)
4th harmonic (fret 9)

Didn't most of the original (steel string) acoustics only have markers at these frets (if they had any at all)?
And I'm guessing that any further marks were (are) just for aesthetic purposes.

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Offline 1 Cal

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2007, 08:37:47 AM »
I got the above HARMONIC information from The Guitar Handbook by Ralph Denyer. [B)]

On further checking (Googleing) it looks like that information is incorrect as the 1st harmonic (or fundamental) is in fact the open string itself. [:I]

So the corrected version of the above would be:

OPEN STRING HARMONICS
2nd harmonic (fret 12)
3rd harmonic (fret 7)
4th harmonic (fret 5)
5th harmonic (fret 9)

But I'm sure that isn't the last word on the subject. [:D]
Many thanks for starting the topic Childbride. [8D]

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Offline Fretless Johnny

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2007, 11:30:15 AM »
The dots demarcate where the intervals fall along the string.  There are 12 tones in western harmony (thus the octave at the 12th fret), but we only use 7 tones to make up a scale.  The dots are there as a visual aid to help us see the intervals. The trick is to think of the dots as markers that separate groups of like intervals, rather than being a specific note.  

If the open string is the root note, the dots represent the following:

3rd fret = the minor third, one fret up is the major third.  Below this dot are the major and minor second.
5th fret = the Perfect fourth
7th fret = the Perfect fifth...most important note for tension/resolution which is why some guitar makers mark it differently, just like the 12th fret.
9th fret = this is where things get interesting.  The major 6th at the 9th fret is not a chord tone, which is why the dots are really there to divide interval groups.  Above that dot are two frets, the major and minor seventh (chord tones).

So you can think of them as specific notes, especially when thinking about the 4th or 5th.  But an easier way to see the neck is to think of it as groupings of intervals along one string and the dots show you where one type of interval starts and another begins.    

0 | m2 | M2 | m3 | M3 | P4 | Tri | P5 | m6 | M6 | m7 | M7 | Octave |

--|---------  o -------- o -------  o ------  o ------------- oo    

Hope this makes sense.

John
« Last Edit: August 12, 2007, 11:35:33 AM by Fretless Johnny »
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Offline RGG Music

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two dot or not two dot...
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2007, 01:32:06 PM »
Holy cow John.  I'm sure you're right, but I was happier thinking they were just there cause they look nice.  And they do, especially when they're in little snowflakes.  Love those!

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