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Author Topic: Buzz Feiten Tuning  (Read 8468 times)

Offline rebucklin

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« on: November 04, 2010, 09:38:41 PM »
I just bought what I thought was a new D-10S. However, when it arrived I noticed that it didn't have the Buzz Feiten Tuning system on it. After contacting Washburn (several times) I finally got the skinny on it. Washburn didn't start putting the Buzz Feiten system on the D-10S until the end of 2008. Bottom line, there are still a few brand new D-10S' that are still available and are being sold as new, even though they were built before the fall of 2008. I guess there's no shelf life on guitars. lol! I am posting this for anyone who has recently purchased one of these models from one of the many discount warehouses out there and wondering why your D-10S didn't match the description on Washburn's website. As of now, the Washburn Tech's are aware of this little flaw. After having a professional set-up done to include a Tusq nut and saddle and new Martin SP4100s, I couldn't be happier. GREAT GUITAR!!
 

Offline mcloud10

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2010, 12:44:28 AM »
As an understatement, the Buzz Feiten Tuning System is something of a controversial subject around here.  Suffice to say that the D10 does extremely well with or without it.  The Tusq nut and saddle will just make this good guitar even better.

Mark

-------------------
'73 Washburn W240 (Finished!)
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical
'89 Washburn C10N Classical
'73 Sivertone Model 319
-------------------
'71 Yamaha FG-300 (in restoration)
'73 Washburn W240
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical (Son's)
'10 Washburn WC150SW Classical
Washburn Rover RO20 Travel Guitar
Behringer ACX450

Offline Rocket

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2010, 03:40:47 AM »
BFTS = marketing hype + little else.

Offline Quinn Spalpeen

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2010, 11:08:56 AM »
BFTS = Much double speak and contravenes the laws of physics.  

You don't want it,,,, for no other reason than not having to make a fool of yourself trying to explain it. There is no controversy about it at all, it's gobbledygook.

 Digital Piano
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Nothing under the sun is new Watson. .... Sherlock Holmes

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Martin 00-15
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Offline boynamedsuse

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2010, 11:50:12 AM »
I fall into the Buzz Feiten works camp. To me, it makes the guitar sound much better up and down the neck--especially when using chords and therefore need each string to be in tune with more than itself (standard intonation). Still, lacking the BFTS is not a deal killer.
 

Offline Quinn Spalpeen

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #5 on: November 06, 2010, 12:24:56 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by boynamedsuse

especially when using chords and therefore need each string to be in tune with more than itself (standard intonation).


Would you care to elaborate on that? The strings need to be in tune with more than itself, I mean.  

My strings are tuned to be in tune, E is an E,,, A is an A,,, D is a D,,,, etc. Yours are not?  

Mr. Pythagoras worked all this out for us some 2500 years ago.  When discussing the BTFS, many people like to throw about the terms, intonation, temperament, justification, and mix them up in a jumble,,,, which is a non-starter, each of those terms means something different. (Those same people usually have trouble with basic terms such as tone, pitch, timbre, as well.) Digital Piano
Marshall AS50D
Fender Super Champ XD
Nothing under the sun is new Watson. .... Sherlock Holmes

Washburn F10S (From Funky Munky, no G.C. stuff for me.)
Martin 00-15
Martin 000-28
Trinity College Bouzouki
Raul Emiliani Model 928 (Stradivari model)
Scott Cao STV-950 (Hellier model)
Eastman Master Model 905 (Stradivari model)
Roland F-110

Offline Quinn Spalpeen

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #6 on: November 06, 2010, 12:28:12 PM »
P.S.  This BTFS idea has been around for a very long time, it's gone in and out of favor many times over the years,,, the longest lived version is the compensated saddle, and that is going by the wayside,,, most manufacturers only include it because the public expects it. Digital Piano
Marshall AS50D
Fender Super Champ XD
Nothing under the sun is new Watson. .... Sherlock Holmes

Washburn F10S (From Funky Munky, no G.C. stuff for me.)
Martin 00-15
Martin 000-28
Trinity College Bouzouki
Raul Emiliani Model 928 (Stradivari model)
Scott Cao STV-950 (Hellier model)
Eastman Master Model 905 (Stradivari model)
Roland F-110

Offline Rocket

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #7 on: November 06, 2010, 12:28:45 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by boynamedsuse

I fall into the Buzz Feiten works camp.

Small camp... I only see the short bus parked there these days.

Offline boynamedsuse

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2010, 07:23:01 PM »
Most people tune the guitar by setting an open string to a note: EADGBe. Then they tune based on the 12th fret harmonic to EADGBe one octave up. (You can also tune by fretting the string at the 12th fret, but this is less common.) In either case, an adjustable bridge is required to adjust the string length so both points can be in pitch. Without an adjustable bridge, you can only tune the string at one point.

However, the strings are all different masses, materials, tensions, and lengths. Therefore, the 1/12 intervals defined by the frets do not result in the same pitch change for each fret for each string. This causes them to change pitch with respect to one another in an uneven manner.

Further, when you press down to fret, you are stretching the string so that the string has higher tension than when it was tuned (if you tune with an open string and 12th fret harmonic) and it will actually be a sharp by a number of cents that corresponds to the fret's location on the fingerboard. The difference is the greatest at the first fret and less toward the 12th. This is why the first few frets sound slightly sharp even with a guitar that is in tune. The effect lessens as you approach the 12th fret. Past the 12th fret, a guitar starts to go flat.

However, these effects can be compensated for by offsetting the intonation of each string by a sub audible amount that still makes a difference when comparing two strings that together have a greater change in pitch with respect to one another. A variety of methods have been employed to do this over the years, with the BFTS being one of them.

Those of you who wish to understand more can learn about intonation here—the first of eight articles on intonation:
http://www.doolinguitars.com/intonation/intonation1.html
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 07:35:31 PM by boynamedsuse »
 

Offline Quinn Spalpeen

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2010, 08:10:13 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by boynamedsuse



However, the strings are all different masses, different tensions, and different lengths. Therefore, the 1/12 intervals defined by the frets do not result in the same pitch change for each fret from the 1st through 12th frets for each string. This causes them to change pitch with respect to one another in an uneven manner.




Should have just stuck with the link you posted, it's an accurate piece. the first page anyway, didn't read all eight.  But the quote above is BFTS talking points, and doesn't stand the test of physics as practiced in the world today.

Once the material of the string, and the diameter of the string and the tension of the string are set,,, they are no longer variables in the equation.  The only variable is the length of the vibrating string.  (There is some variation with how hard you press the string, but that is a matter of technique, not something that should be of any consideration to the set up. Technique and only technique will correct that)

You can not tune a fretted instrument so that all strings are perfectly in tune up and down the frets,,, the only three/four places that the intervals are exact are determined by Mr. Protagoras in 3:4:5 triangle are the root, perfect forth, and perfect fifth and octave.  There is a reason for that,  you can not divide the octave into 12 ths, or any other number and get equality in the degree of each step,, can't be done, there is always some fraction of error, think of the Psi, it is a never ending number, it has no fixed end. The 3:4:5 ratio is the convention for Western music. That ratio can be exact, hence the term perfect forth and perfect 5th,

unison
perfect forth
perfect fifth
octave

That makes a 3:4:5 right triangle, the only exact right triangle that exists, everything else is approximate.  Not one single other right triangle will/can give exact dimensions. Mr. Protagoras thought it was divine so he based what we use up to this day as a musical scale upon it. (With some minor tweaks over the 2500 years we've used it.)

No musical instrument, especially a fretted instrument can produce a pure and perfect tone anywhere on the fretboard, there must be some error, some more or less overtones, minute imperfections, otherwise every musical instrument would sound just alike.  That's what gives every instrument it's individual timbre.  The closest you can come to a pure and true tone is electronic generated tones, after that an oboe, (which is what orchestras tune to, 440 A on the oboe.) Digital Piano
Marshall AS50D
Fender Super Champ XD
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 08:12:39 PM by Quinn Spalpeen »
Nothing under the sun is new Watson. .... Sherlock Holmes

Washburn F10S (From Funky Munky, no G.C. stuff for me.)
Martin 00-15
Martin 000-28
Trinity College Bouzouki
Raul Emiliani Model 928 (Stradivari model)
Scott Cao STV-950 (Hellier model)
Eastman Master Model 905 (Stradivari model)
Roland F-110

Offline boynamedsuse

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2010, 09:02:55 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Quinn Spalpeen



You can not tune a fretted instrument so that all strings are perfectly in tune up and down the frets,,,



A piano falls into this category as well. A few hundred years ago they came up with a tempered tuning system for it and the last time I listened to a piano it seemed to work pretty well. Unless you are proposing that someone stop using a tempered tuning system on pianos, perhaps there is some hope for those of us who wish to use one with a guitar.

 

Offline Quinn Spalpeen

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2010, 10:24:26 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by boynamedsuse

Quote
Originally posted by Quinn Spalpeen

A piano falls into this category as well. A few hundred years ago they came up with a tempered tuning system for it and the last time I listened to a piano it seemed to work pretty well. Unless you are proposing that someone stop using a tempered tuning system on pianos, perhaps there is some hope for those of us who wish to use one with a guitar.



The 'tempered' tuning system you are trying to talk about is this:

Temperament: A system of tuning where intervals are altered from those that are acoustically pure. As opposed to Equal Temperament: A system of tuning where the octave is divided into 12 equal half-steps.

The guitar's temperament is already set when the frets are laid down. The guitar is designed to have the same temperament as the piano, flute, violin, oboe, harmonica, they all use the same temperament.

In western music, the just intonation is derived from the root, perfect fourth, perfect fifth and octave. All conventional instruments are designed this way.

Don't confuse the term temperament with just intonation or justification. they don't mean the same thing.  These terms have exact meanings, it's not like horse shoes,,, close has no meaning.

I rely on Groves Dictionary of Music and Musicians (22 volumes) as the definitive source.  Others are just as good, but more handy, Harvard, Oxford, etc, etc,  the internet is your least reliable source, most people misuse the terminology, and apply words wrongly when trying to explain a subject they understand poorly or not at all.

But to make it as simple as I can.  Your guitar already has the just intonation built into it, by the placement of the frets in relation to each other.  The same system as all other conventional western musical instruments.

The BTFS is a gimmick, it does not do anything that is not ALREADY being done.  It is a guitar urban legend.  Sort of like the violin and fiddle are different sort of thing.
 Digital Piano
Marshall AS50D
Fender Super Champ XD
Nothing under the sun is new Watson. .... Sherlock Holmes

Washburn F10S (From Funky Munky, no G.C. stuff for me.)
Martin 00-15
Martin 000-28
Trinity College Bouzouki
Raul Emiliani Model 928 (Stradivari model)
Scott Cao STV-950 (Hellier model)
Eastman Master Model 905 (Stradivari model)
Roland F-110

Offline Rocket

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2010, 10:30:44 PM »
Wasted effort Quinn... BFTS is a religion to believers. Common sense & empirical evidence cannot change religious minds.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 10:33:07 PM by Rocket »

Offline mcloud10

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2010, 11:50:49 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by Quinn Spalpeen

Equal Temperament: A system of tuning where the octave is divided into 12 equal half-steps.




Exactly.

It is possible to tune a piano into the perfect 4th and fifth in one key only, but then all the other keys are out of tune.  The reality is that temperment tuning is a compromise - essentially setting all 12 tones to the same degree of inharmonicity.  It's inescapable on a piano - or on a guitar.

One interesting fact:  When a quartet sings, they tend to sing to the perfect intervals, that is, they tend to tune to a perfect third, fourth, or fifth with each other.  When singing with a piano, they have to modify their intervals if they want to sing in tune with the piano.  Otherwise they sound out of tune with it.

After considering physics and the nature of string harmonics, it's easy to see there is no system that will get around the compromise that exists in our system of intervals.

I'm not a supporter of BFTS.  Anymore, that is.


There, I said it. :)

Mark

-------------------
'73 Washburn W240 (Finished!)
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical
'89 Washburn C10N Classical
'73 Sivertone Model 319
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 11:51:50 PM by mcloud10 »
-------------------
'71 Yamaha FG-300 (in restoration)
'73 Washburn W240
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical (Son's)
'10 Washburn WC150SW Classical
Washburn Rover RO20 Travel Guitar
Behringer ACX450

Offline Pining

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Buzz Feiten Tuning
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2010, 02:14:04 AM »
I too have a D10S woth no BFTS.
That must be why I can't play like Billy Gibbons yet.

(I just looked up what it is on the internet.)
.....Gimmick!
(Although if you removed the lightning bolt and replace it with a horse shoe, pointed the neck to the north when you played, it would be in perfect feng shui and all notes to come out of it would be perfect. Who needs practice!!)

If your fingers can't make the sound, a bit of extra plastic isn't going to do it for you.