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Author Topic: Buzz Feiten Intonation  (Read 5853 times)

Offline DaJudge

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Buzz Feiten Intonation
« on: January 25, 2015, 09:13:00 AM »
I have recently purchased a 2nd Hand Washburn guitar which has the Buzz Feiten tuning system.

I have given the guitar a full setup including lighter gauge strings which I have tuned down a half step, added a spring to the reverse of the trem, adjusted the claw to get the floyd floating parallel to the body, adjusted the action slightly and am now ready to adjust the intonation however I am having a lot of trouble with this as apparently you need a tuner which has the BFTS intonation presets as they are completely different to the tuning presets.

I have been searching around for hours now and have found only one tuner which is available in the UK and costs £140 (Peterson Stomp Classic) however I am extremely reluctant to pay out that much for a tuner considering this will be it's only use

I have looked at various apps for android and apple devices but there are only a couple which have the BFTS presets for tuning and not intonation.

I normally just use a Korg Pitchhawk clip on tuner or an android app called waves for tuning and have tuned the guitar according to the instructions on the BF page about tuning each string to an E note. The app has a variety of temperaments predefined or the option to define your own if that can be used to input the offsets?

Any other help or suggestions would be fantastic!!

Many Thanks

Ben
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 09:16:24 AM by DaJudge »

Offline danielsan73

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2015, 02:12:44 AM »
 All the BFTS tuners do is take into account the offsets so that you can tune open strings rather than E notes. Regarding the intonation, it's offset a cent or two on various strings so you need a list of offsets and a tuner that is accurate to a cent. I have seen a list of offsets on a forum post. As for a BFTS tuner I got a Korg DT7 used on ebay for £20 or so....
2011 N4 Korina 2.0, 1992 Alder N2, EA20SNB, Idol WIDLXSPLTD, 2007 N61,  Ibanez RG230, Ibanez Artcore AWD72ATF, Ovation Celebrity, Cort Bass, Vantage Acoustic Bass.

Offline Sextant1951

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 07:33:04 AM »
DaJudge....have you investigated the "Peterson Stroboclip", I've read that it can handle guitars that sport the Buzz Feiten system.... and sells online for about $65.95 could be an better alternative (price wise) to the Peterson Stomp Classic of which you've mentioned.

Offline DaJudge

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 04:45:05 AM »
Hi guys.

Thank you for the reply.  I have also seen the tuning and intonation offsets online and had used them with an app which claimed to be accurate to 1 cent however when it came to the intonation every string was showing as flat and after adjusting all the saddles one at a time towards the neck I have now moved every saddle forwards as far as they will go but they are still showing as slightly flat on each string... so I am nog satisfied the app I have is accurate.

I did look at the korg tuner but the only one I have seen on ebay uk was in pretty tatty condition and was buy it now for 40 quid :/

I have looked at the stroboclip tuner from peterson but that is only set up with the tuning presets for bfts and not the intonation and the display doesn't show the cents flat or sharp from the note.

Given the trouble I have had with the app and that asking local shops who do setups and getting blank stares when I ask about bfts intonation and tuner accuracy I am now considering the strobostomp!!

Thanks for your help guys... if I have another crack at the intonation and can't get anywhere I will be back!!!

Cheers

Offline Sextant1951

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2015, 08:56:07 AM »
....good luck in solving this problem, Dajudge...this is only "one" of the reasons I've never been a fan of the Buzz Feiten tuning system....no one should ever have to work this hard to tune a guitar!

Offline YerDugliness

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2015, 11:19:08 AM »
I've already voiced my issues with the BF system...but perhaps what we're talking about here is a small subset of musicians who have perfect pitch and nothing played with less than perfect intonation sounds "right" to them...one of my acquaintances is an incredible guitarist and he and I were talking about classical guitars, which do not have a "compensated" saddle. He said that all guitars by virtue of the nature and number of variables involved with getting everything perfect will sound a bit off...you just have to learn that it is the way the guitar is suppose to sound and embrace it. I tend to believe him...playing both styles of acoustics I find the classical guitar much more musical. You can blame that on my musical history if you'd like...my first 30 years as a musician were strictly on a classical guitar, so it's what I know...and, therefore, my steel string guitars sound a bit "off" to me.

It's all about perception for most of us...but there are a few for whom it's all about perfection...maybe the BF tuning system is for them?

Cheers!

Dugly 8)
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Offline Creekboy

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2015, 02:53:18 PM »
I have recently purchased a 2nd Hand Washburn guitar which has the Buzz Feiten tuning system.

I have given the guitar a full setup including lighter gauge strings which I have tuned down a half step, added a spring to the reverse of the trem, adjusted the claw to get the floyd floating parallel to the body, adjusted the action slightly and am now ready to adjust the intonation however I am having a lot of trouble with this as apparently you need a tuner which has the BFTS intonation presets as they are completely different to the tuning presets.

I have been searching around for hours now and have found only one tuner which is available in the UK and costs £140 (Peterson Stomp Classic) however I am extremely reluctant to pay out that much for a tuner considering this will be it's only use

I have looked at various apps for android and apple devices but there are only a couple which have the BFTS presets for tuning and not intonation.

I normally just use a Korg Pitchhawk clip on tuner or an android app called waves for tuning and have tuned the guitar according to the instructions on the BF page about tuning each string to an E note. The app has a variety of temperaments predefined or the option to define your own if that can be used to input the offsets?

Any other help or suggestions would be fantastic!!

Many Thanks

Ben

You might read this:

http://forums.washburn.com/index.php/topic,23787.msg152241.html#msg152241
Playing the concert guitar is solitary, contemplative, misanthropic,
scientific in some hands, poetic in others, and laced with conflicting
aesthetic considerations.  It's not even clear if music is actually the point.

__ I said that!

Offline Creekboy

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2015, 03:04:55 PM »
I have recently purchased a 2nd Hand Washburn guitar which has the Buzz Feiten tuning system.

I have given the guitar a full setup including lighter gauge strings which I have tuned down a half step, added a spring to the reverse of the trem, adjusted the claw to get the floyd floating parallel to the body, adjusted the action slightly and am now ready to adjust the intonation however I am having a lot of trouble with this as apparently you need a tuner which has the BFTS intonation presets as they are completely different to the tuning presets.

I have been searching around for hours now and have found only one tuner which is available in the UK and costs £140 (Peterson Stomp Classic) however I am extremely reluctant to pay out that much for a tuner considering this will be it's only use

I have looked at various apps for android and apple devices but there are only a couple which have the BFTS presets for tuning and not intonation.

I normally just use a Korg Pitchhawk clip on tuner or an android app called waves for tuning and have tuned the guitar according to the instructions on the BF page about tuning each string to an E note. The app has a variety of temperaments predefined or the option to define your own if that can be used to input the offsets?

Any other help or suggestions would be fantastic!!

Many Thanks

Ben

You might read this:

http://forums.washburn.com/index.php/topic,23787.msg152241.html#msg152241

Playing the concert guitar is solitary, contemplative, misanthropic,
scientific in some hands, poetic in others, and laced with conflicting
aesthetic considerations.  It's not even clear if music is actually the point.

__ I said that!

Offline Sextant1951

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2015, 01:30:58 AM »
YerDugliness...although I'm not a fan of the BF tuning system..( nor the Fanned-fret tuning concept, any better, worse.. hmmm, don't know...just don't think either brings much to the table , but hype) I hear what you're saying, you bring up a very good point.

« Last Edit: February 15, 2015, 11:03:31 PM by Sextant1951 »

Offline Tony Raven

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2015, 10:03:50 PM »
I've only intonated one Feiten guitar, so FWIW, it was pretty much how I usually work. With a decent tuner, I tune the open string (or the 12th-fret harmonic), then I fret at 12 to check sharp/flat. Adjust the saddle. Repeat. When open & fretted are dead-on, I'm done.
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Offline Tony Raven

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2015, 04:10:51 PM »
This afternoon, a nice used X Series (MIK) arrived.

It presents a philosophical poser: if the nut has been replaced with a Graph Tech Tusq, is it still a "Buzz Feiten Tuning System" guitar...?

 ???
M1SDL; XB-400 (natural), XB-400 (burg), XB-500 (teal); X-10, X-33; D46CESP, WCSD30SCE; BT-3, BT-4, BT-6, JB-80; WS-4; WI-66V; Lyon LCT24; OS Autoharps

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Offline YerDugliness

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2015, 07:12:48 PM »
EXACTLY my question...as posed here:

My WD32SW has the Buzz Feiten tuning system...or maybe it doesn't (anymore)...

It might be a lost cause for me, b/c my factory saddle and my factory nut on my WD32SW have been replaced with West African Hard Ivory from Bob Colosi, so if the nut or the saddle (or both) are responsible for the BFT's claimed benefits, mine went away with the old plastic stuff long ago.

Cheers!

Dugly 8)

If the main contributor to the BFTS "difference" is that .021" compensation between the nut and the first fret, it might still have BFTS, I'd guess...but how would you know if you couldn't hear the difference?

I still think it's an issue for only those with "Golden Ears", as they are often referred to  in the field of audiology. They really do perceive things in a much more precise "black or white" manner, with little patience for anything even slightly off. For GE's even miniscule amounts of "wow" (when using an old analog turntable) sounded like fingernails on the chalkboard...most others could not hear it.

Does it still have BFTS...I'd like to think so, although I will never refer to mine as having the BFTS when I sell it (which might be soon)...and will certainly divulge why.

For the record...I couldn't hear any difference between before the nut swap and after....but, then, at my age my ears are more like lead than gold  >:(

Cheers!

Dugly 8)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2015, 07:31:05 PM by YerDugliness »
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Offline Tony Raven

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2015, 04:21:18 PM »
Having pondered this for a few years, I have finally concluded that I can see NO earthly reason that the BFTS could possibly require a tuner personally blessed (if not sanctified) by Pope Buzz Himself.

My guitars are in good repair. When I tune to standard, I pick an open string close to the bridge (reducing overtones). In noisy situations, I snap off a 12th-fret harmonic.

A plain ol' six-string guitar, tuned to what we're pretty much stuck with, has its lowest string producing a fundamental 82.41 Hz, or so they tell me.

But if you take the Red Pill, then you clearly need to tune that E string to...

...82.41 Hz.

 ???
________________

Guitars (to me) seem more a matter of accuracy than of precision. Like the piano, the guitar is trapped in equal temperament, & can't hope to be in just intonation, much less anything more "unusual."

I'm no music major -- can't read enough sheet music to hurt myself -- but I know what I hear. Even among Western "classical" composers, a note might be ever-so-slightly sharp or flat depending on what note/chord is "in charge" at that point.

Tuning a string so that it's in perfect scientific dead-on accuracy therefore means you are promising it'll be bloody PERFECT... for just that one time in twelve, & YMMV on the rest.

My D46 has less than 100 hours of play on it. It's got the BFTS & the anointed built-in B-Band tuner. As I get an occasional onstage panic-attack about tuning, it's a HUGE assurance to press a button, look down at the bout, & see that I'm plenty fine. However, after replacing the strings & bringing it up to pitch, two of the strings sounded "off" to me despite the tuner's assurance. I strummed some first-position chords, then full barres mid-neck -- yep, definitely off. I tweaked the Grovers, & all was well, though the tuner told me otherwise.

The precise tuning was therefore wrong, & improved by the accurate tuning.

Strings age, becoming more flexible, & developing "softer"/"warmer" tones due to degradation of the wraps & covering with finger oil, dirt, corrosion, etc. Neck curvature changes with ambient humidity & as the wood continues drying --not to mention differential drying rates of the neck & the fingerboard. Frets wear ever so slightly. And so do nuts, especially thos woith little teensy shelves sticking out.

All of this works contanly against the BFTS. Let's just not mention the questionable accuracy of just about every vibrato system that employs crude 2" coil springs....
________________

Scanning a Washburn catalog (2005?), a passage stuck in my head, to the effect that the BFTS fixes intonation in the first three frets. It's an honest statement that collides directly with those who rave about what a clear difference they hear mid-neck.
M1SDL; XB-400 (natural), XB-400 (burg), XB-500 (teal); X-10, X-33; D46CESP, WCSD30SCE; BT-3, BT-4, BT-6, JB-80; WS-4; WI-66V; Lyon LCT24; OS Autoharps

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Offline Sextant1951

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Re: Buzz Feiten Intonation
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2015, 05:13:15 PM »
Washburn will be announcing five new Rovers.. maybe as soon as next week...I wonder if any of them will carry the BFTS...now that would be a hoot, now wouldn't it.  ;)

http://www.sonicstate.com/amped/2015/03/03/washburn-introduces-new-travel-guitars-/

« Last Edit: March 15, 2015, 05:36:40 PM by Sextant1951 »