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Author Topic: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?  (Read 607 times)

Offline Mbechmann

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Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« on: December 07, 2017, 10:07:54 AM »
I wasnt able to reply to the original thread about Matsumoku and HP35s, so I had to create a new thread.

The original thread is here:
http://forums.washburn.com/index.php/topic,16184.270.html

Anyway, a LOT have happened since the last post - and this will clear up a LOT of the speculation about Washburn and Matsumoku.

And Tio, and Racing, you guys were VERY close to getting this right.

Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 10:08:25 AM »
First things first. As you may know, we are a small group of Daion fans that have done research into Daions the last 6 years. Doing this time we have also done research into Washburns.

So here are some of the things we have been able to prove.

Yamaki build Washburns from 1977-1984. This is confirmed by the head designer and son of the Daion founder.
Yamaki closed the factory in Suwa in 1983 and moved into an office in Shiga. Thats when they outsourced the instruments. They went under in 1984.
Yamaki build the Stage series, the Wings series, and several acoustics and they build the HB35 series.

Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 10:10:06 AM »
One of the major keys here is that in 1973 Japan passed a law that all instruments leaving the factory completed had to have a unique serial number where you could ID factory and date. They had a grace periode of 3 years to emplement this. So at the latest by 1976 all factories in Japan had to use serial numbers. That law is still in effect and has turned into the consumer law in Japan.
This is a major key because that means that you now can ID the factories through the serial numbers. This also means that you can elliminate factories if you can prove that the factory used another style of sn at the same time. That would not be legal. An example of this is the Aria Cardinal series. They used 7 digits starting with 0 or 1. They were ONLY build between 1981-1983.
See where I am going with this? Because we now KNOW that Matsumoku used that style a different style serial number from 1981-1983 there is no way they could also use 8xxxxx style. That would simply not be legal. This also means that we can 100% rule out Matsumoku as the builder of these HP35. Thats the beauty of this law and why this law is the key in this.

Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 10:13:14 AM »
Adding to this, we found out that Matsumoku NEVER build ANY Washburns. Not only is this confirmed through the JP serial number law, but its also confirmed by a guy that worked at Matsumoku until he moved to Korea in 1987. 
However the reason for this myth is actually fairly logically. Its that third factory that is also mentioned in this thread as a possibility. That factory is Chushin and they are the key to this. They build instruments that was outsourced by Matsumoku and they build instruments outsourced by fx Washburn so people conclude: Matsumoku build Washburn. Thats not the right conclusion but its an understandable conslusion.

Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 10:19:50 AM »
I cant seem to post the rest of the info I wanted to post. Admins, can you help here?

Offline WEBgUy

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 10:36:09 AM »
There may be a time limit keeping you from posting more than a certain number of posts at a time. Wait a bit and try again or try to fit everything you want to say into 1 post.
 

Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 10:37:34 AM »
There may be a time limit keeping you from posting more than a certain number of posts at a time. Wait a bit and try again or try to fit everything you want to say into 1 post.

If I write too quickly it says there is a 30 sec timelimit. So thats correct. But now, even after I wait I get an error saying that I need to contact an admin

Offline ship of fools

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 11:50:15 AM »
are you talking about electrics being built by Yamaki from 77-84 cause I am pretty sure they built acoustics before 77 can see why there is so much confussion records I can guess were not a big priority for them at that time
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Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 11:58:38 AM »
are you talking about electrics being built by Yamaki from 77-84 cause I am pretty sure they built acoustics before 77 can see why there is so much confussion records I can guess were not a big priority for them at that time

Well sort of :) Its true that Yamaki also build some acoustics Washburns earlier. We just dont know if they were full scale productions or prototypes of some sort. We have also seen some acoustics Washburns that was build prior to 1977 that was build by Terada. So we dont know for sure about the acoustics :)

On the electric sides its a whole different story. Wings, Stage, HP35 and Force to some degree as well are confirmed to be Yamaki.

Offline Tony Raven

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 08:58:06 PM »
Yamaki also build some acoustics Washburns earlier. We just dont know if they were full scale productions or prototypes of some sort. We have also seen some acoustics Washburns that was build prior to 1977 that was build by Terada. So we dont know for sure about the acoustics :)

On the electric sides its a whole different story. Wings, Stage, HP35 and Force to some degree as well are confirmed to be Yamaki.

I apologize in advance because I realize that you are a serious fan & not simply seeking for controversy.

First, though I will gladly have Jim Smith weigh in here, there is little argument that there are Yamaki-built instruments branded "Washburn." There were, of course, the dreadnought-format acoustics built for Beckmen Musical Instruments, which ceased operation in 1977, selling off assets (including the Washburn brand).

There is no confusion about this, except for your use of undefined terms such as "full-scale production": as Jim Smith has said, many Washburn models (particularly acoustic)  were ordered in lots of 200 units &, if sales were poor, were simply never re-ordered. I certainly wouldn't make the case that the 200 were somehow "a prototype" rather than "full-scale production."

Rudy Schlacher sourced multiple factories to produce Washburn-branded instruments, & one of those vendors was Yamaki. The better Wing & Stage models were likely made by Terada, with the lesser (biolt-neck) models from Matsumoku, possibly until its 1987 demise. After Schlacher launched Washburn, he certainly continued to "audition" other manufacturers in pursuit of both quality AND profit margin.
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Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2017, 01:51:30 AM »
[quote author=Mbechmann link=topic=27080.msg159514#msg159514 date=1512669518Yamaki also build some acoustics Washburns earlier. We just dont know if they were full scale productions or prototypes of some sort. We have also seen some acoustics Washburns that was build prior to 1977 that was build by Terada. So we dont know for sure about the acoustics :)

On the electric sides its a whole different story. Wings, Stage, HP35 and Force to some degree as well are confirmed to be Yamaki.

I apologize in advance because I realize that you are a serious fan & not simply seeking for controversy.

First, though I will gladly have Jim Smith weigh in here, there is little argument that there are Yamaki-built instruments branded "Washburn." There were, of course, the dreadnought-format acoustics built for Beckmen Musical Instruments, which ceased operation in 1977, selling off assets (including the Washburn brand).

There is no confusion about this, except for your use of undefined terms such as "full-scale production": as Jim Smith has said, many Washburn models (particularly acoustic)  were ordered in lots of 200 units &, if sales were poor, were simply never re-ordered. I certainly wouldn't make the case that the 200 were somehow "a prototype" rather than "full-scale production."

Rudy Schlacher sourced multiple factories to produce Washburn-branded instruments, & one of those vendors was Yamaki. The better Wing & Stage models were likely made by Terada, with the lesser (biolt-neck) models from Matsumoku, possibly until its 1987 demise. After Schlacher launched Washburn, he certainly continued to "audition" other manufacturers in pursuit of both quality AND profit margin.
[/quote]

There is a lot of things here.

First of all. The Wings and Stage are NOT made by Terada. They are made by Yamaki. How do I know this? I am talking to the man who designed them - the son of the Daion founder.
Add to this, that the sn is Yamaki. There is no doubt at all, that they are Yamaki made.

The bolt on neck versions. These were made by Chushin. I know that they were NOT made by Matsumoku. We have a contact at Matsumoku and he confirmed that they never build ANY Washburns. Again the sn confirms this.

As for full-scale production. I will clearify a little bit what I am talking about. Prototypes build by Yamaki are less than 5 build. Yamaki produced around 1200 Washburns a year through 77-84.
Before 77 the low numbers I am talking about are indeed prototypes. Less then 5 instruments each time.

 As for the 200 orders at the time. I think that sounds about right. Its a number we have heard before but we have also heard numbers saying 50, 100, 250 and 500. Even 12 (Yamaki build Harptones). I think the answer to this is that they didnt focus on the 200 as a number. They would order more a specific model and that was it :).
That being said, they still have a contract on building these so it was not like they ordered them. They were contracted to build them from 77 and they were to deliver a specific number of instruments each year. What models they were producing would be whatever that they sold the most of.

Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2017, 02:02:12 AM »
There may be a time limit keeping you from posting more than a certain number of posts at a time. Wait a bit and try again or try to fit everything you want to say into 1 post.

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Offline YerDugliness

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #12 on: December 08, 2017, 09:18:11 AM »
There may be a time limit keeping you from posting more than a certain number of posts at a time. Wait a bit and try again or try to fit everything you want to say into 1 post.

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I keep getting that notice, too! I notice that if I can't get the information to post, the forum software deletes my intended post in quick order, too. It is quite frustrating, as I do tend to create rather lengthy posts.

Cheers!

Dugly 8)
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Offline YerDugliness

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #13 on: December 08, 2017, 09:24:37 AM »
[quote author=Mbechmann link=topic=27080.msg159514#msg159514 date=1512669518
As for the 200 orders at the time. I think that sounds about right. Its a number we have heard before but we have also heard numbers saying 50, 100, 250 and 500. Even 12 (Yamaki build Harptones). I think the answer to this is that they didnt focus on the 200 as a number. They would order more a specific model and that was it :).

I know for a fact that they order smaller runs. When I ordered my C124SWK I asked one of the moderators how many were received and was told the total production run was only 26. For the C124SWCEK model I was told it was even smaller (IIRC I was told it was 12).

I have played classical guitars for over 40 years and with the single exception of a handmade Hippner model, this C124SWK model is my best classical. To be truthful, there are things about my C124SWK that I like better than the Hippner (like the floating arm rest, for one!).

Cheers!

Dugly 8)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 09:27:34 AM by YerDugliness »
YerDugliness,Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL, attempting to age disgracefully!
Washburns:WD32SW,D61SW,C124SWK,
WMJ21S(2),WGO26SCE,WSJ60SKELITE,WG26S (2).
Other fine acoustics:Breedlove custom shop 000,Hippner #506 Hauser,Takamini 2005 LTD,Epi Masterbilt AJ500RC

Offline Mbechmann

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Re: Washburn build by Matsumoku and/or Yamaki?
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2017, 09:40:59 AM »
I know for a fact that they order smaller runs. When I ordered my C124SWK I asked one of the moderators how many were received and was told the total production run was only 26. For the C124SWCEK model I was told it was even smaller (IIRC I was told it was 12).

I have played classical guitars for over 40 years and with the single exception of a handmade Hippner model, this C124SWK model is my best classical. To be truthful, there are things about my C124SWK that I like better than the Hippner (like the floating arm rest, for one!).

Cheers!

Dugly 8)

There is 1 difference. The C124SWK is not made by Yamaki  :D. I use to own a Washburn DM2000S Millenium Series Limited Edition, and that was only made in a 1000 production run total.

But this was much earlier than these. There you had a fairly decent amount of production runs. That being said, yes, they did shorter runs as well. Fx a Washburn Falcon Goldtop. We know of 2 of those built so they did do much smaller runs. I am talking about the runs for the standard Wings or Stage series. The order would be: 50 Falcons, 50 Eagles, 50 Ravens, 50 Hawks and so on. In total it will be an order for 200 instruments