The Washburn Guitars Forum

Washburn General Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tio Kimo on September 13, 2009, 08:48:30 AM

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 13, 2009, 08:48:30 AM
Hello all,
Hoping to get some input from those folks who are familiar with the output of the Matsumoku factory and Washburn's in particular. I know there are fans of the solid body wings and A series, who may not be as familiar with the HB-35's.

Older HB's are often coming up for sale, and their origin is always hazy, due to MANY variations within the eighties...string through vs. tone-pro style bridge, wing vs. Gibson style bound headstock, 4 digit serial #'s vs 6 serial numbers...and lastly, where they were built.

I've read that Matsumoku ONLY built solid body electrics for Washburn. does any one know if this is true?

Here is a link to a site which is trying to be comprehensive in it's info about Matsumoku...It clearly does not show the HB as one of the guitars that were made for Washburn...

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/washburn.html

So...what gives???

One reason I'm trying to get to the bottom of this is that I've seen listings on ebay where the seller clearly and emphatically states the HB for sale is made by Uncle Mat...and is asking over a grand for the guitar...I'm thinking he's full of it...but I could be wrong.

Thanks for the help.

my HB...

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/P1050015.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 13, 2009, 10:59:09 AM
I hear ya.
As a vivid member of matsumoku.org i at least have come to take notice of the current uncle mat fever that´s seems to be on the rise.
Let´s just say that in the recent year the asking prices of the genuine article seems to have gone up 100%.
Especially so with the Aria and Washburns.

We see more and more claims of given guitars to be made by matsumoku,and what makes it hard to distinct is that in some instances these claims are correct.
In short,by far of all Uncle Mats productions has yet been referenced.
Hence,you should to this day regard the pages of the library of matsumoku.org as guidelines more than anything else.

When it comes to the washies made by Yamaki and Matsumoku i for one at least think that some of them are downright world class,top notch gutars by any measure.To the point of pure custom shop stuff.

However,to determin what´s Yamaki/Mat and what´s not can sometimes be a harder than it looks,and it´s IMO not really until you pick the axe apart and ontop of that carry a certain amount of knowledge of these guitars that things become certain and evident.

In the case of the HB above my answer on both counts would be no though.
Main reason is that the logo and headstock form can´t be found on any of the other Yam/Mat Washies-right off the bat.

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/catalogs/early_80s_fullline/80s_full_line_pg6_web.jpg.html

You can clearly see how these HBs share inlays,headstock form,hardware asf with the highend wings.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 13, 2009, 11:07:00 AM
Btw.
I recently picked up a Washburn W24BBR-V super tele.
Upon examination this axe shows more and more signs of being yamaki.
BBR för black/black/red,and within that series of guitars we for instance also find the A20BBR.
Good friend Oscar just bought one of those,a BBR-K(for kahler altho it sports a wonderbar)and that axe no doubt is a setneck Uncle Mat to our findings.
Nother friend,Torbjörn,in turn owns an A20 that he suspects to be Yamaki too....and nother friend Tommy owns an A20 that we both suspect to be Uncle Mat.
So.
What gives here,and can really any basic conclusions be made?

Sorry...but nope.
Not as far as we´ve concluded at least,and hence which is which seems to be a point of disecting guitar per guitar.

Build quality and attention to detail of the Yamaki guitars in general tho seems to be a notch higher.
NOT better guitars than the Uncle Mats,but they indeed seem to be put together more with that last touch in mind.

The bindings of my Yamaki made Eagle for instance are made out of separate pieces of brass coupled with mahogony.
Now...the brass of the neck could basicaly be used for a straight edge if need be,and the general attention to detail of the axe simply doesn´t come out until you play around with it IRL.
A super build in my book..
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 13, 2009, 11:15:29 AM
I´ll go on.
Neither the HBs or for instance the HM guitars are speced as Mat by the library.
What i CAN tell you from own experience is that some HM series guitars with 100% certainty was made by Matsumoku.
Ie,again...dont read into the specs to the letter.
Judgement is called for.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 13, 2009, 12:49:14 PM
Racing, are you aware of Matsumoku making semi hollow or hollowbody Jazz style guitars for anyone, Washburn or otherwise?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 13, 2009, 01:03:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Racing



In the case of the HB above my answer on both counts would be no though.
Main reason is that the logo and headstock form can´t be found on any of the other Yam/Mat Washies-right off the bat.

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/catalogs/early_80s_fullline/80s_full_line_pg6_web.jpg.html

You can clearly see how these HBs share inlays,headstock form,hardware asf with the highend wings.



Good point. to that end, look at this flyer from '89, long after the Matsumoku plant had burned down....

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/1989-HB35HB50HB60.jpg)

You see the -35 with the classic round ears and the wing style head stock, and right next to it, the HB-60 with the gibson style headstock. At this point in time, Yamaki was still a manufacturer, and had been building Acoustic Washburns for years. I've heard it said that 35's were built Japan through '92.

So I'm going to take a leap, since Yamaki was making acoustics from the late 70's for washburn, and the HB style is of a manufacture more similar to an acoustic than to a solidbody..wouldn't it have made sense for Washburn to have it's solids built in one shop, and it's hollow's in another?

But, on the other hand, Racing states that he is aware of solids being built by Yamaki, so it could go either way?!

thoughts?


Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 13, 2009, 02:10:54 PM
Absolutely.
Matsumoku made several semis.
Vantage,Aria asf.

For Aria they even made a model called FS,which something as obscure as a neckthrough semi.
Have had the pleasure to try both the FS750 and the FS1000 Aria Pro IIs and those are for sure highend jap guitar craftsmanship at the highest level.

I don´t know where that rumour that Matsumomku burned down origins,but for all we know this is NOT true.
Matsumoku closed shop due to economic reasons in 1987.
Ie;bankrupcy

That the semi Washies depicted would be japanese of orginins...don´t be so fast to conclude that-altho it might very well be correct.
At the time lots of hardparts were shipped to the at the time up and rising Korea to have complete guitars manufactured.
These early Korean guitars often of rather high quality and build.

This holds true for the Aria production as well-seing the semis then...
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 13, 2009, 02:13:07 PM
Speaking of which.
Couple of easy things to check are the pots and the caps.
Take the lid off at the back and write the numbers down.
Check what colour the caps are.
Not conclusive by far,but if they are the wrong colour and markings they aint uncle mat for sure.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 13, 2009, 04:33:03 PM
Hey racing what color are the caps suppose to be, what lid are you talking about?

Tio Kimo; Maybe we should also focus on the label colors and designs of all Washies of the MIJ years. The label on my 01 Korean HB-35 is certainly different my 89? HB-35.

I will continue scanning eBay and Craigslist looking for original owner HB's maybe some useful info will be stated and I will ask questions.

Do you know when they changed the head stock designs, perhaps they used both designs but at different factories.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 13, 2009, 05:12:28 PM
TIo Kimo; that ad you posted states Mahogany neck on the HB-35, I suspect mine is Mahogany but that head stock I've never seen on an HB-35 that I can recall except on a string through. All of the older HB-35's I have seen post string thru models have the Dove Wing style headstock. I can see the research needs a lot more work. Surely there must be someone that can shed some light on the mystery  since it wasn't really all that long ago.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 13, 2009, 10:39:04 PM
Tio Kimo .. (I am the guy with the Washburn J6 with ser #8839)... interesting discussion and I amd definitely curious about the origin and genealogy of my guitar.  Really and excellent guitar
quote:
When it comes to the washies made by Yamaki and Matsumoku i for one at least think that some of them are downright world class,top notch gutars by any measure.To the point of pure custom shop stuff.
 THAT is how I feel about my Washburn J6.  

I want to share something with you.  I used to work for Gibson over at 7373  Cicero Avenue in Lincolnwood, Il in 1956 and so was very familiar with their quality (incredible standards -- every guitar perfect).  BUT whoever made this Washburn J6 guitar did exactly that kind of a guitar and I have owned it and played it all these (21) years. I don't think THEY could make for the price I paid new (I did not realize the factory burned down)  They guitar is world class (and I just played a 4 hours session at a La Jolla pool party and they all were raving about the guitar (my music) and the band.  

Earlier in the afternoon I had lunch with my daughter and son in law and I asked them NOT to give the Washburn or the Hamer to my grand son before he was 25 because I do not want them trashed.  I have no intention to sell them.  I have four acoustrics .. he can have my washburn D10 or my Tacoma DM10 (but not the Gibson J-100 until he's 25).  (I also have a Yamaha FG04-Ltdd)   Washburns are EXCELLENT GUITARS .. the J6 is an L5 -- it is a clone.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 14, 2009, 12:05:22 AM
Welcome Gitfiddle, are you the original owner of your Washie? The reason I ask is because there is some question on the first 2 digits of the four digit serial numbers being the year built. Can you post some pics of the J6?

A few things we have determined is that six digit serial numbers were used on string through HB-35. then there was an unknown period of time that four digit serials were used then the six digit serial reappeared, like mine 899xxx. Tio Kimo's HB-35 serial is 81xx, his guitar certainly is not an 81 model as they were string thru models. Perhaps the serial has nothing to do with the year and is only the production or work order number. For instance if the first 2 digits are the year then it leaves serial numbers for only 100 guitars a year, about two a week being build which would be small production.

On another note about gibby's I had a 2002 Les Paul, the bridge was installed 3/32 too close to the fingerboard and had to be moved back before it could be intonated. Dan Erlewines book on guitar repair addresses this and it was a common problem according to him.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 14, 2009, 12:47:25 AM
My Serial number is J6 space 8839 and the tag says In the Chicago Tradition  -- but I deduce is was made in Asia.  Pictures:
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/J6three.JPG
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/paulJ6NP.JPG

The guitar is a lot prettier than the pictures show .. the two bands I play in are Swing Street and the Saints -- and the song books are on the shelf. LOL.  Notice the tailpiece is a Gibson L5 type tailpiece and the fretboard is a copy of Gibson and really nice .. beautiful.   The pearl seems to be real pearl and also beautiful.   The toggle switch is oin a different location than the L5.  Ove the years I have had several set ups and I had the frets dressed once .. probably will get a fret job at some point and I am thinking about SD SH55 Seth Lovers -- all of that about $500 (but to me the J6 is priceless so I do not care  about having a newer guitar -- I like this one. I have a newer guitar (Hamer Newport Custom Pro -- wow .. that's perfect .. that is a dream) http://www.hamerguitars.com/pics/models/NEWPROCRRG_sm.jpg  BUT very expensive. I prefer the tailpiece to the Bixby or the LesPaul bridge on a hollow body because the stress is transferred top the end.  A thrill to play it.

SO here are TWO incredible electric guitars.  I have asked my daughter not to give them to my grandson until he is 25 so they will not be trashed.  I am not planning on leaving any time soon and I will not sell them (be sure of that).  

My gut feeling is that guitar prices are going to quadruple as the dollar crumbles.

Any opinions abolut Seth Lovers?


Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 14, 2009, 02:18:13 AM
Tio/Jonson,my bad about the lid.
Didn´t think semi but solid.

Caps for an Uncle Mat are always either matte green or maroon.Always marked with capacitor value,and the text soon enough sets them apart.
Pots are matte and marked with resistance value and type(A/B),and then sort of a date/serial.The latter not always applicable however.
Pots are also always full size.None of that mini anything in sight.(Often used on korean axes)
Outputjack is a single prong type-that in turn often loses tension over time.
Insulators for the jack are out of what we over here at least call backelite-a composite used since the 50s.

Colour of pup wire shielding are either grey or brownish,often depending on what sort of pup.(Late 70 up to 80s era)
Altho there are a multitude of pups made by uncle mat most of them boil down to being marked MMK followed by a suffix.
MMK more often than not etched and the suffix printed.
There are exceptions to this though.
Like the proto1s that lack any and all markings and for the Yamakis the ones in the wings that mainly also lack markings.
Then there´s the early production that can be marked F aso.(early/mid 70s)

The Yamaki pots are often of push/pull variety and these look a little different than the current generic ones.
Again full size.
Yamaki used caps that looked a little different to the Mat ones as well.

That´s a short summary that should NOT be taken to the bank due to the most famous sentance of them all with Uncle Mats.
-Specifications to change without notice-

There´s more tell tales for Uncle Mats than that,but let that suffice for now.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 14, 2009, 03:51:37 AM
Gitfiddle, very nice guitars you have.

Racing thanks for that info. My HB-35 from what I can see with my inspection cam, has green caps couldn't get a good view of the markings, brownish spaghetti insulation, pots marked 500 k on the side on the back is lettering partially covered by soldering of the ground wire, I couldn't get a good view of the jack, the f hole is to small to maneuver my cam very much. I'll check the pups next restring.

Checked inside my HB-35 again, still cannot make out the caps, the pots are mini's, checked stewmac and all pots they carry for arch tops are the mini.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 14, 2009, 08:40:31 AM
TK, if I were to make a guess as to the difference in serial numbers, I would guess that Washburn changed manufacturers. My Tacoma built D46 Cheyenne has a 4 digit serial, using Tacomas system. Some have posted pictures of their D46's that had the long serial numbers, after Washburn moved production from Tacoma. Of course, that's just a guess on my part.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 14, 2009, 12:19:01 PM
Funny seing this thread...
Looks like i just bought me an -83 vintage Washburn Force 4 bass.
Going to be interesting to rip it apart as it shows up.
Speaking of Yamaki,Matsu asf..
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 14, 2009, 04:37:08 PM
I just had a long discussion with the luthier.  I have been searching forums and ads and Wiki for weeks trying to make sure I got the right pickups for my J6 (it's expensive).   Well it devolves down to this: IF you were designing the J6 today WHAT would be the right pickups.  Well it comes to Seymour Duncan Seth Lover being a choice that is NOT WRONG..

OK dropped it off.  $330 out the door -- new SD Seth Lover new covers all set up to spec.  Done in about 3 weeks.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 14, 2009, 07:59:39 PM
so, bringing this back around...what do we know.

Racing...do you believe that Uncle Mat made HB's for Washburn? Ever seen em? Ever heard your compadres talking about them? What about Yamaki?

As to the serial numbers...the one facet that was intended to address this issue...there are 4 digit and 6 digit guitars. gitfiddle has a J6 which is VERY similar to mine in finish, with a 4 digit number, bought new in 88. 1984HB35 owns a guitar exactly like minewith a 4 digit number, and he's under the impression it's a Matsumoku. With enough input from owners, we should be able to start to narrow this down.

I happen to own a Yamaki Acoustic from 1981 which has a 6 digit number beginning with 1...

so the question is, what was the system being used by Mat and Yamaki, is there any consistancy between styles and SN's??

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 15, 2009, 10:12:25 AM
I agree with you Tio.  The 1988 has the Gibson-like tailpiece and the Korean made ones have a different style of tailpiece.  (I view mine as a Gibson clone)  The workmanship is fantastic.  Without flaw.  The sunburst finish is flawless.  They guitar is now vintage.  I see so few of them that I think we who own them are less than a few hundred at best.  Possibly less than 100.  (I said to the luthier yesterday where do old guitars go?  he said he wonders too -- where do the thousands of guitars sold by GC go?  You never see thme again)  Do they get trashed?   So we own a rare item.  (and a superb rare item)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 15, 2009, 02:30:30 PM
Well,what we THINK we have figured out is the serial sequence for the other Mats.(Aria/Vantage/Epi asf)
5 digit means it´s a 70s issue,and the first digit denoted what yr.

80s are either 6 or 7.

Now...enter the Washburns.

Would have been easy enough to state that they work the same way,but this is where I will cast my vote and say that is not always true.
Of course the difference between the Yamakis and Mats,but there´s more to it than that.
The Yamaki Eagles et al seem to follow a given pattern.(Highend Wings)
Thing is that some of the ravens dont.
I´ve even seen them sans serial completely-just with the Washburn logo engraved into the neckplate.
So...honestly...i cast my vote as dunno.

Take the Force4 bass i just bought.
I happen to know the guy,and he bought that bass before his oldest daugther was born-which was in 86-and if we were to go by the numbers...it would be an 88 as the first digit is an....you guessed it...8 ;)

However,the first TWO digits are 83-which would be conclusive with when the bass i case was bought by Mike.
A system i´ve encountered on other Yamaki built guitars.

Then...my BBR super tele,which i suspect to be Yamaki,that carries a serial that starts with a 5...and i absolutely guarantee that no other conclusions can be made from the serial.
My old HM-5 same deal.

As for if Matsumoku made HBs...again,your guess is as good as mine,but i for one would find it very plausible.
Have in mind that it was until quite recently that the highend Wings were denoted as being Matsumoku....until the likes of G3H asf started pulling the numbers.
I guess what i´m saying is that between the two that we KNOW were in bed with each other through Washburn alone...chances are that they indeed were on other guitars than the Wings.
Or,more to the point,most likely even.

Please don´t get me wrong here,cause personaly i couldn´t give less of a flying who made what from that regard(player factor) as they BOTH made fantastic instruments.
Just..history is sometimes interesting. :)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 15, 2009, 02:50:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Racing


Please don´t get me wrong here,cause personaly i couldn´t give less of a flying who made what from that regard(player factor) as they BOTH made fantastic instruments.
Just..history is sometimes interesting. :)



Ultimtely, I agree. I love my guitar. It's a great player, and I have no plans to part with it. As I said at the start of the thread, when dudes start placing price tags on them of a grand or more stating that are made by Matsumoku...well, I'm curious how that make that statement.

Thanks for the input, Racing.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 16, 2009, 01:37:39 AM
Tio,  A new HB-35 MIC OR MII list for almost a grand. I don't know about you but I wouldn't trade either of my HB-35's MIJ or MIK for a new one. I believe a grand is probably about the right price for the older HB-35's.

Both of my HB-35's are good players and I am completely happy with them. I am not looking to sell but I would like to know the history.

Here is an interesting article I found on Washburns, seems that they used a lot of plants in Japan.

http://www.guitarworld.com/article/washburn_guitars_burning_for_you?page=0%2C0

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 16, 2009, 03:36:35 AM
Might be,but the mention of Tarada,Ibanez(Greco-FujiGen Gakki) and Tokai hardly qualifys as conclusive.

As far as i know for instance FujiGen landed their contract with Fender for the JV series in late 80.
Ie;that done they hardly needed/could cope with more business.

..and nowhere is Matsumoku or Yamaki even mentioned.
Got a feeling that article tells us about....nothing.
Altho interesting per se.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 16, 2009, 11:42:57 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Racing

Might be,but the mention of Tarada,Ibanez(Greco-FujiGen Gakki) and Tokai hardly qualifys as conclusive.

As far as i know for instance FujiGen landed their contract with Fender for the JV series in late 80.
Ie;that done they hardly needed/could cope with more business.

..and nowhere is Matsumoku or Yamaki even mentioned.
Got a feeling that article tells us about....nothing.
Altho interesting per se.


Yes Racing, that was my point both Mat and Yam being large factories it is odd that they were not mentioned if they were building Washburn's.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 16, 2009, 11:43:29 AM
I just dropped my J6 off at the luthier for SD Seth Lovers .. when that is done I'll have slightly more than $1K in the guitar (since 1988).  I'll do a fret job next year ($300).  We all get set ups (after hot spells, etc.)  what you PAY for a guitar is somewhere between how much it cost to make it and what the seller thinks they can get.  What it is worth to you is all in the mind of the beholder (over time).  So my J6 is worth WAY MORE than I paid for it. [I never wanted to sell it. (get rid of it)  It's been a  good relationship over 22 years]
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 16, 2009, 11:48:53 AM
TK, I found an old post in the forum where someone has a D-28 with the serial# 36xx. Although that is an acoustic I am curious about that serial beginning with #3.

http://forums.washburn.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14216
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 16, 2009, 01:29:51 PM
seeing that all the 4 digit serials I've seen are 8xxx, I wonder if he doesn't have a bad read on it, didn't print clearly etc, and that 3 is really an 8.

Don't know if others saw the note, Rudy, who toured and chose the factories used in the 80's, just sold US Music (Washburn).

Shame. I sat down with him for a discussion a few months back, I would've just asked the man straight up what he recalls...wasted opportunity. [:(]
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 16, 2009, 03:35:59 PM
I have a D46, Tacoma built, that has a 4 digit serial, and the first number is 3.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 16, 2009, 06:43:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by nogin007

I have a D46, Tacoma built, that has a 4 digit serial, and the first number is 3.



What year is your guitar? I wasn't aware that Tacoma also used the 4 digit serial. Perhaps that is what the other guy has also.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 16, 2009, 06:50:09 PM
Just a friendly reminder; I notice this thread is getting a little off subject, I think it was created specifically to address MIJ factories and serial numbers. Help us keep this thread on topic, There are other threads more appropriate to post other guitar information.

A few things we know confirmed; 6 digit serials were used in 82 and 83 after that from 84 to 88 there seems the be a serial number mystery of 4 digit beginning with 8xxx, we feel sure that the first 2 digits on the serial cannot represent the year because Tio Kimo has an HB-35 non string through with the serial 81xx, using the 2 digit year logic it would make his guitar a 1981 year model, the problem there is that 1981 models were string through. It  could be his guitar is a 1981 prototype however that is speculation on my part. That also raises the question if there were any 82 or 83 prototypes.

On MIJ factories we have yet to find a confirmed MIJ factory for the HB-35.

If anyone has a 4 digit semi hollow-body especially the HB-35 serial 85xx, 86xx, 87xx or even a 6 digit serial 84xxxx, 85xxxx, 86xxxx, 87xxxx 88xxxx, please chime in and tell us what you know about the origin of the guitar.

The 89xxxx serial has been confirmed I have one and another has one. Was there also a 4 digit serial in 89 and later.

We have a lot of question and no firm answers.

Help us unravel the serial number and MIJ factory mystery.

Thanks Members

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Squint on September 16, 2009, 08:20:44 PM
I would almost bet those HB/HMs with the same headstock as the J6 were also made at Ibanez. Perhaps Terada or Fujigen. But a luthier who apprenticed at Ibanez once told me that my old J6 I recently sold was probably made at Ibanez as far as he could tell;
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/egtact/S7000829.jpg)

And yes, Matsumoku made PLENTY of hollow and semis... ie ELECTRA;
(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/egtact/guitars0209067-1-1.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l69/egtact/electraguitars0209004.jpg)




'93 Washburn J-9 Washington
'97 Washburn J-9 Washington  
'02 Washburn J28SCEDL Cumberland
'90 Washburn EA20YBR Festival
'83 Washburn D66SW Prairie Song Custom
'04 Washburn D104SCE  
'04 & '05 D'Aquisto CENTURAS (violin burst)
'77 Electra X-410 Jazz Strad
'77 Electra Maple Pro (autographed by Bill Nelson)
'04 Aria PE SPL DLX SD
'82 Aria ProII Thor Sound 600
'05 Agile 2500-12
'06 Agile TC-630
Fender P-bass


ANOTHER PROUD MEMBER OF THE CUMBERLAND BRIGADE!

www.soundclick.com/thecoastalcowboys
www.myspace.com/thecoastalcowboys
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 16, 2009, 10:14:28 PM
now we're getting somewhere...
That is definitely the same headstock as mine, with the multi-piece neck that skidbrick shows in this thread,

http://forums.washburn.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14181

Squint(I was hoping you'd show up here), I don't suppose you have a record of what your serial number was on that J6? And what about the headstock on that autographed Electra?

As for nogin's post, I actually feel it's relevant to know that there are other guitars with a 4 digit serial...particularly American made acoustics...while it muddies the water further...It makes me aware that the system was used elsewhere.

Nogin...is it an '03? What is the interpretation of that number?

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 17, 2009, 02:59:22 AM
To keep this within realms tho i think we should add to the fire that Washburn most likely didn´t get into bed with to many manufacturers as that would contradict sound economics.
Simple truth is that the longer the runs,the lower the production cost.
Ie;I could take to heart that they used a minor number of subcontractors for their guitar manufacturing,but large amounts of them-like the payload from a scattergun-nope...
That would be shooting themselves in the foot with said scattergun from a pure economics POW.

Yamaki and Matsumoku..sure..and most likely there´s at least one more.
Matsumoku after all closed shop in 1987 as far as we know,and that void needed to be filled.

I´d say based on the add online at Mat.org it would be safe to conclude that at least the HBs with headstocks similar to the wings came out of either Mat or Yam.
Those that some of you guys depict though(with the different headstock)...reasonable enough to assume they´re from somewhere else.
Major first Q being vintage,and in that case-are they japanese even?

Based on the article it is logical that Washburn moved their production to Korea not until very late in the 80,and perhaps even very early 90s.

That in turn leaves a couple of yrs unaccounted for(-88/-89),and another such question is if the production was moved even earlier as the boat started to swerge at Matsumoku.?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 17, 2009, 03:06:58 AM
Squint.
An interesting fact,FWIW,is that the Washburn symbol and logo on the tuners of the HB in the pics of yours is the later logo.
The tuners of the wings i´ve seen that are either Mat or Yam all carry the old encircled george washburn one.
Might also be a hint that these were made elsewhere.
This for the SBS one in contrast to 6 inline.

Speaking of semis,as been noted Mat indeed made them for Vantage and Aria both at least-apart from the Electras.
On a sidenote even so the neckthrough semi in form of the Aria FS1000,and DAYUM for a guitar!!
Have tried the 750 and 1000 both,and they leave you absolutely speachless.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 17, 2009, 07:48:19 AM
Nogin...is it an '03? What is the interpretation of that number?

  Serial number 3268, October of 1996. Tacoma went into buisiness, making guitars, in 1996. The first year they used a 4 digit serial, with the first 3 numbers referring to the days of the year, using the Julian calendar. The fourth number was an internal code. The second year, Tacoma went to a 6 digit serial, with the first 2 digits referring to the year. The third year, they changed their serials numbers again, using that system until Fender bought them.
   Also, remember, on the Washburns, the years that a 5 digit serial was used, only the first number referred to the year. It might be the same on the 4 digit serials, but that's only a guess.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 17, 2009, 01:20:25 PM
Took deliver of the Force4 bass.

The newsflash is that the bridge has Chuchin cast into the base of it.
However,that says very little of the manufacturer of the instrument per se.
The Force4 is japanese by manufacture tho no doubt.
Tuners are with the same type logo as the wings.Ie;the encircled George Washburn symbol.

As our server is down at the moment i´ll have to ask you to be a little patient for pics..

General impression of it though is that it is a simple,but very well built jap bass.
I believe the body of it to be one piece.Either basswood or alder.
Reason is that the paint of it seems rather thin,and you can see how the paint has sunk in to the wood.No split marks what so ever though.
Neck is out of very nice looking maple,and the fretboard is the really really beutiful rosewood.
Black to the colour and with a white pickguard.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 17, 2009, 06:01:51 PM
Washburn tuners on my 89xxxx HB-35

Also the Epiphone Sheraton was made in the Mat plant

I looked on the Electra Website and did not find the headstock design, however an Epi headstock is much different as well.

(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/wmjonson/7.jpg)(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/wmjonson/6.jpg)

(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/wmjonson/group.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on September 18, 2009, 12:26:28 AM
Hey TK, Sorry I'm late to the thread.  You've all been busy!  Very interesting discussion, and I'm not sure I can add much more.  However, here is some specific ~earlier HB-35 & J-6 info that I've been able to piece together over the last few years.

I have the earliest 6-digit HB-35 serial # that I've seen, 811061.  I've seen one other 81, but it was later, 811503.  I believe that both of these were built in 1981, and either sold in 1981 or 1982.  I've never seen an 1981/2 price list, so I can't say for sure.  I have seen a 1979 list, and there weren't any HB-35's listed.  The first year HB-35 I've seen listed is 1983, with two versions, an HB-35 and an HB-35DL.  For 1984 an HB-35 and an HB-35V were listed, both with coil taps.  I believe they used push/pull pots, and not a toggle.  Same as the $1200 ebay HB-35 listed in this thread, with serial # 832846 => 1983 built, 1984 model?

Besides the wing headstock, string-thru-body bridge, lower toggle, etc...the first 3 years of six digit S/N's HB-35's, 81XXXX, 82XXXX, & 83XXXX also had tuners with the George Washington oval label.  Most of these also only had dot inlays.  I have seen one HB-35DL, and it had wing inlays.

I think TK's style comes next.  There might have been some transition ones, or production could have stopped, and then started up again, maybe in another factory?  Key changes were a new headstock design, non-string-thru-body bridge, gold no-name tuners, block inlays, etc.  These have the four digit S/N's.  As I mentioned before in another thread, TK's is the earliest four digit, and the highest I've seen is 87 19.  It appears that these started out with 1-piece necks, and based on the S/N's I have, somewhere between 84 62 and 85 11 changed to 5-piece necks.  Besides TK's 81 XX, I've seen one other 81 XX, but no 82 XX S/N's.  I've also seen several 83 XX, 84 XX, 85 XX, 86 XX, and one 87 XX.  

For early J-6's with four digit S/N's, the lowest I've seen is 80 02, and highest was 8876.  Headstock design, gold no-name tuners, and block inlays were all the same as the HB-35's.  Also, all of these J'6's had 5-piece necks and an L-5 style tailpiece.  Pretty sure Japanese made.

So, are all these 8XXX HB-35's and J-6's built in 1988 somewhere in Japan?  I think they are, and both were probably built in the same factory. The other 3 digits are likely just a running total (including early J-6's).  Any other four digit S/N Washburns, are probably not related factory or year wise.

The next HB-35 version's serial #'s are six digits, and the lowest I've seen is 898724.  Basically they are very similar to the four digit ones, but now have Washburn labeled tuners.  My guess is that these were produced in 1989, maybe in Japan, or maybe in Korea with left over Japanese parts.  90XXXX & 91XXXX HB-35 all have similar details, and were probably built at the same location in 1990 & 1991.

The next HB's serial #'s are seven digits and start with an S => Samick.  Clearly Korean made, and the lowest number I've seen is S9207112.  These still have Washburn labeled tuners, but now have what I call the half moon headstock, split block inlays, and the toggle moved to the upper bout.

As for which factories were used for the Japan HB-35's, the earlier discussion on the Mat's components is interesting.  I've never looked at the pots/caps on mine.  I guess that I have some homework, maybe this weekend.

Sorry, for the long post.  If anyone has any earlier/later HB-35 or J-6 S/N's matching a different version, please let me know.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 18, 2009, 01:02:48 AM
gtracer that is interesting info. Thanks a bunch.

Do you know what headstock style was on the early 90's HB-35?

I have 2 HB-35 guitars an 899xxx and an 01 N-0105xxxx definately Korean it is marked as is it's OHSC

(http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/wmjonson/1.jpg) (http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab83/wmjonson/3.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 18, 2009, 01:35:26 AM
If anyone is looking for a used hb-35 older model check this out $349.00 TBS, It is almost like yours TK it appears to have the headstock inlay.

http://www.musicgoround.com/detail.aspx?id=836227
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 18, 2009, 01:48:16 AM
TK have you ever seen this before, the guy has 8149, sounds just like yours exact.

http://forums.washburn.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13719
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 18, 2009, 02:13:25 AM
Right.
When it comes to pups,pots,caps,wiring n such..

The Mat and Yamaki built solids at least share the green colour of the caps for some models.(Mat also used maroon as stated-at least from my experience)
The Mat ones being more dull/matte than the equivalent Yamaki ones-which i´ve even seen in rather bright green nuances even(BBR tele for instance).
Further,the green colour is darker for the Mat caps.
Often these are labeled with capacitor value.
Ie;223 for instance,and this numbering in silver..as in about gun metal grey.
If the green is more medium and you can trace the guitar by the serial NOT being a Mat,well...that´s where we often find the Yamaki ones.
However,i´m absolutely certain that there are more players in action here.

If i´m not mistaken the wings for instance were considered Mat for a time until some wings showed evidence of the word yamaki being printed to the PCB that´s onboard the Eagles/Falcons et al.

Thing is that rather little is known of Yamaki all things compared-at least to my knowledge.Very little is to be found online at least.
Apart from the highend wings, for a couple of years they also produced various guitars under the Daion label,and that aside i´ve at least seen
one acoustics labeled Yamaki.
Ie;it´s safe to assume that Yamaki were contracted for other guitars as well as the ones listed above sure can´t carry an entire guitar making facility.

Terada has been mentioned.
Cool enough,and Chuchin as well.
These two are interrelated,and Chuchin being involved with the Maya and ElMaya brand.
I´ve also owned another of their guitars-a Bambu CB625,a design resembling the Vantage form of rather high quality.
This one also had the words Chuchin cast into the bridge piece.
Chuchin to my knowledge however was a general subcontractor for cast parts-like bridges and such.

What makes this hard is that due to cultural differences and distance coupled with Jap business ethics,lot´s is hidden from public knowledge.
Further,as far as we know,lots of these manufacturers subcontracted each other.

Just take the Greco brand.A name normaly associated with FujiGen Gakki.Greco being their name for the domestic market most of the time,as they normaly were labeled Ibanez for export.
However it is evident that Grecos were also produced at Matsumoku.
I´ve personaly handled several stratocaster copies clearly marked Matsumoku on the neckplate.This is a FACT.

If we´re to sort this out to the best of our knowledge i for one at least think it is imperative to keep some basic business ethics and economics in mind.
Sure.
The various Gakkis were in bed with each others.However,shipping is a cost..and that should be held in mind before stating that a given guitar has been produced at X with components from Y.The longer the distance in turn,the higher that cost.
Hence,before stating anyhting it is a good idea to disect a given guitar.
Point being that Washburn as well as all the others,albeit producing very very nice instruments at the time,were in this for the MONEY.
Period.

Take the Mat setnecks for instance.
A typical feature of these when setneck is the stabilizer screw-or screws-beneath the neck pup.
Basicaly there to secure the neck over time.This screw is to my knowledge always a philips headed one.
I have yet to see a setneck Mat missing it.
What makes this whole deal a LOT harder is the specifications to change without notice deal.
Matsumoku were infamous for this,and hence rather profound differences can show up within a given series or brand for no real apparent reason.
Changes were implimented hard and to the point from time to time.No questions asked.
Almost to the tune where you get the notion that some of these guitars were built on an individual basis.
The flora of guitars out of Matsumoku for instance is downright mindboggling and there seems to be no end to the various guitars popping up.
This OF COURSE also brings the worms out of the woodwork that want to sell their whatever and as such bring it off being a Mat or similar to bring the asking price up as these guitars are becoming in fashion from a collectors POW-as well as player.
Again..economics,and i for one at least believe it is in our own interest to set the record straight as best as we can to help prospective buyers out and to keep this whole deal clean as best as we can.

Serial decoding holds true to an extent for the Mats at least-from what it seems.
However,enter Washburn(and Epi as well to an extent)which sometimes do NOT follow given order(again a case of....you guessed it ;) )

Ergo,it gets even more important to disect given guitars as best as we can to get to the bottom of this if we in fact ever will.
Let´s get one thing straight.
It is often claimed that certain guitars were produced at X asf.All good,but again..please bare in mind the various costs involved.
IF and WHEN production was moved to Korea and IF some of the hardware was shipped from Japan as surplus or whatever...costs.
...and shipping cost for various hardparts are way less than for entire guitars..
It is just sound logic that Washburn for instance tried to cut cost as best as they could.
Business is business..no two ways about it-EVEN if you aim to produce a quality product there STILL has to be some sort of net result to show at the end of the year....or no business will remain.
Also have in mind that these guitars were basicaly ordered from the proprioters of the Washburn label.
In the US.Hence the cultural differences.

The recent Force4 bass of mine for instance.
Follows the serial decoding of Yamakis,however the BBR super tele of mine which i also believe to be Yamaki does NOT.
The BBR being an -85 vintage from what we´ve gathered,and the Force4 an -83.
Both of high quality build,with the BBR CLEARLY coming out ontop.
For a boltneck i´d say that from a build POW it runs right up there with the really highend wings.
Something that can NOT be said for friend Oscars BBR A20K-although that being a setneck.
The BBR tele more to the point follows the Mat way of serials.
The Force4 bass..carries pots that LACK the type and serials of the Mats,and carries a cap that as stated is brighter green as well.
Pots within are NOT the much more shiny ones often found in Korean axes though.
They´re still of that dull character.
Further,fit of neck is typicaly japanese,tight as a....to the point where you to the letter have to break the neck away from the body by force even with the screws taken out.
Neck out of more or less onepiece maple of high grade...fretboard that you simply don´t find on lesser instruments asf,and then bare in mind that the Force4 bass as the time wasn´t highend but a more mundane piece of work.

Back ontopic.
HB35.
I´d say that it´s fair to wager that some of these were indeed built at Matsumoku OR Yamaki.
Which is which...is up to you guys that own em to show.
What some of us others can bring to the fire is general knowledge of the builds produced by the various factories.
WM for instance.
No offense,but if the tuners of your HB depicted hasn´t seen brute force i´d say it´s highly unlikely that tuners that skewed would ever have left Matsumoku.
Just as an example.
The minimum level of the Mat guitars were rather high-as were Yamakis for that matter-and that´s what we´ve come to associate with them.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 18, 2009, 02:31:41 AM
For the sake of argument.
When picking up pots and caps for a guitar factory you most likely don´t do this by the hundreds.
More likely..by the tenthousands.
All in effort to bring cost down,and if the contractor of caps for instance deliver X number of thousand caps at one given time it is most likely that these will look the same.

Ie; if pots and caps for a given guitar hasn´t been changed it is a feasable way of tracing the heritage of a given guitar.
As most of these jap axes wasn´t considered of any real value until quite recently(last 5 yrs+) to the masses it is also safe to assume that most of them haven´t seen service in this department.
In short,although not by any means a surefire way of telling the history of a given guitar it´s at least a reasonable one that in total can be added to other such telltales.

Likewise with the above mentioned setscrew for the setneck Mats.
From what i´ve seen,and i´ve serviced a few by now,they to the letter ALL carry them.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 18, 2009, 04:52:50 AM
For those of you so inclined.
The Force4.

http://forums.washburn.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16215
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 18, 2009, 05:34:25 AM
no time to give this justice...so many excellent points and contributions...gotta get to work ($$ for more guitars!!)

WM: yep, that HB description is mine to a T

Racing: Beautiful bass, and your point that this discussion is about being informed...so guitars aren't being misrepresented..spot on.

gt: not much to offer?? excellent download!

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 18, 2009, 08:15:49 AM
I used to have an old Aria, similar to the HB35's, made by Matsumoku. I was looking in the Vintage Guitar Price Guide last night, and found this. It might not apply to Washburns. Arias didn't have serial numbers, or pot codes until the mid-seventies. Then the serial numbers had 6 digits, with the year of manufacture in the first one or two digits. Thus, a guitar from 1979 might begin with 79####. One from 1981 might begin with 1#####. The scheme became less sure after 1987. This came, as listed, from the Price guide.
   GTracer, I have a '92 J6, and the serial number is, 9206135. No letter prefix. Probably different from the 35's. It also has Grover tuners, not Washburn labeled.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 18, 2009, 07:36:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Racing

Right.

WM for instance.
No offense,but if the tuners of your HB depicted hasn´t seen brute force i´d say it´s highly unlikely that tuners that skewed would ever have left Matsumoku.
Just as an example.
The minimum level of the Mat guitars were rather high-as were Yamakis for that matter-and that´s what we´ve come to associate with them.




Thanks for the info racing. So where do you suppose my guitar was made since you have absolutely ruled it out as Mat or Yam. Are you saying that if the guitar isn't perfect in every way it can't be a Mat of Yam?

Did I mention that there is NO scarf joint in the neck? As far as the tuners being skewed I put a straight across then and they are very close to alignment with each other. They could be aligned perfectly by loosening the screws and bushings then twist and tighten. After all the guitar has 20 years of string tension on the tuners.

Myself I think at this point it is all inconclusive and nothing can be ruled in or out. What do you think?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on September 18, 2009, 08:09:47 PM
WM:  The 4 digit HB's/J-6 and 6 digit HB's from '89-'91 all have the same basic headstock shape.  However there are differences in the details, the tuners are labeled differently, and I believe you pointed out earlier that the Washburn inlay is slightly different, and the '89-91's (like your's) have additional inlay work.

As to Racing's great points about hardware, I'm pretty sure that the early HB's string-thru-body bridges are the same or very slightly different than the early Wing's.  The tuners were the same, and I think the p/u's were also.  So, maybe they were all built at the same factory.  I doubt that Rudy would have been buying hardware and then distributing it to different makers.  But who knows, he was a trained guitar maker that certainly knew what he wanted, as evident by those early guitars.

Hey nogin, I have seen '92 J6's with and without an S, and I've seen some other (90XXXX) J6's with Grovers.  Does yours have the half-moon/crown headstock shape, a 5-piece neck, and L-5 style tailpiece?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 18, 2009, 09:45:24 PM
Does yours have the half-moon/crown headstock shape, a 5-piece neck, and L-5 style tailpiece?

Yes to all three.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 18, 2009, 10:06:41 PM
GT, my 89 HB-35 is very similar to all the 8xxx HB-35 I have seen the exception is TK's unknown year HB-35, other than color the only difference seems to be the headstock inlay. From what information I have gathered Washburn started Korean production in 90 or 91 but no-one seems t knows for sure.

MIJ Epiphones have the same unknown factory and serial problem. I have one which I believe is a 1976 marked made in Japan.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 19, 2009, 12:28:29 AM
@Nogin.
Basicaly that with the serials is NOT correct for Uncle Mats,and again...us vivid members of Mat.org should know better than most.
MOST 70s produced Uncle Mats carry 5 digit serials where the first digit indicates yr of manufacture.
6 or 7 digits means 80s.
For instance.
Got an Aria ProII LS 700 transition.Serial is 6 digit and starts with a 1 rendering it an 1981 vintage.
The ones that carry 6 digits are the Yamakis et al.

WM.
No.Not by any means,what i´m saying is exactly what i wrote.
That IF those tuners haven´t seen severe force of some sorts it is highly unlikely that it would ever have left Matsumoku like that.
Even if you check out a lowly Vantage VS600 you can bet that you get 100% symetry at the tuners.
That´s just the way Uncle Mats are put together,and again...that is NOT saying that stuff can´t happen to a guitar in 20yrs.
If it´s an -89 vintage though i can guarantee that it is NOT Uncle Mat as Matsumoku closed shop due to economical reasons in 1987-making that impossible.

In general.
The output from Yamaki and Uncle Mat of course isn´t flawless.Of course it´s not.
Point though is that the lemons are few and far apart.Especialy so for guitars that are Aria,Vantage,Washburn et al,and even more so for those produced around the break of 1980.

Above i´ve let the cat out of the box as far as hardware recognition-for the lack of better words.
If we get into the woods used by the japs something to have in mind is that the jap bought up large inventorys of high grade woods starting already in the 60s for the purpose of building guitars.
They basicaly snatched this infront of the big ones in the US that at the time didn´t really care,and indeed...for a number of yrs during the 80 were left behind from a wood quality POW.
Ie;the jap had material of very high grade in surplus coupled with skilled craftsmen to pull it all of in the 80s and really got their s**t together to be blunt about it.
That leaves what could best be described as a hunch,a notion,as you get to see a number of certified jap 80s guitars.
You over time sort of develop a feel for what´s japanese and what´s not as you start scrutinizing the woods used.
Take the Force4 bass i just bought.
If that bass would have been produced anywhere else than japan i´d bet money on that the fretboard of this midrange instrument wouldn´t look like it does-as an example.
Likewise for the neck in itself.
The word flawless is often misused in my book,and the neck and fretboard of said Force4 isn´t flawless from that respect but very close to being.
I believe it was Cornish Boy that stated in another post that some of these highend jap builds are about as custom shop as they come,and after having taken very close looks at a number of these highend jap axes i for one agree.
100%.
Putting a fretboard like the one i describe on a medium level bass guitar to an extent is the story about the sows ear i guess,cause at that level nobody really expects it to be there..but it is. ;)

Which i guess is one of the beuties of jap made guitars of the era.

All in all it comes down to the materials involved coupled with the from time to nother anal approach to detail when were talking about these guitars.
The further we move from the 80s break,the weaker these telltales become IMO,and to cloud the pic even more some of the really early korean builds were of high quality and detail too.
Ie,as mainly that anal approach to putting the axes together calms down a little by the jap as the 80s starts coming to an end,the koreans kind of smoothly takes over at about the same level-which in turn all goes to hell in a handbasket as we move into the early 90s more often than not.
Like...the 60s and early 70s prods out of japan,albeit maybe not THAT bad. :D

For instance.Here´s a tidbit of info i bet at least SOME of you weren´t aware of.
Many rosewood as well as ebony fretboards are dyed.
This for two reasons.One to get the right nuance to it,and second to hide any and all blemishes it might have.
Well,for the late 70s and early 80s builds out of Mat and Yamaki just fugedaboutit.
Those boards are anything but.They´re just what you see it what you get,and then are we approach the mid 80s at least Mat started to dye their boards when needed.
This is another clear telltale or whatever you wish to call it.
I´ve got a pair of Aria Masterpiece PE1500s hanging around coupled with a same era Eagle,Falcon,Aria LS700,Vantage VP795 asf.
To the letter all of these i´ve had to pieces and ALL of them show this really really beutiful fretboards that are all they can be.
Just...plain woods.The Masterpieces with brazilian jakaranda(what´s normaly regarded as the finest rosewood around)
Now..amongst others i´ve also got an Aria PE deluxe Kahler Vibrato.
Made in 1985,and btw as such sport a 7 digit serial,but that aside the board of that one is most def dyed.
Something that became very evident as i cleaned the board out after pulling a fretjob-where i also leveled the board when bare.
This is something that has proven to hold water for many Mats and Yamakis i´ve worked on.
Early ones,either with highend rosewood or ebenholtz are always pure,while the later ones indeed react to for instance acetone even 25 or 30yrs later.

Guess what i´m saying is that a good measure would be to compare a given guitar to other certified jap builds.
Forget about the dye specificaly,but try to get a feel for the build in general.
The jap builds very rarely carries a miss.Forget about any and all dings,scratches and what have you not and try to look through the build.Get a general impression of it.
Stuff like the hardware telltales indeed help,and jap pups of later 80s era vintage are often marked while early korean ones are rarely.
(Early jap ones ain´t either for that matter)

Example of marking are the Mat trademark MMK series of pups.
These were often stamped into the bottom plate of the pup,and then the type(Ie;45.53,61 asf) was marked in ink.
For Aria there were also pups just marked F or FS asf,while some as far as the early 80s carried no markings at all.(Proto1s for instance)
Likewise the ones in a Wing series guitar.
These are claimed to be Goto;s but nobody´s really sure.They lack marking,but on the other hand the wing series pups carry the typical dual screw setup at the top which sets them apart.

Again...try getting a feel for the entire build.
Soon enough it becomes evident what could/should be japanese and what´s should not.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 19, 2009, 12:39:56 AM
WM.
On the matter of Epis.
Correct.
One of them that has been debated is the Genesis.
Or more to the point the Epiphone Lespaul Genesis.
These have been claimed to have been made in Taiwan at the time.
After having looked a couple of them through i´d have to say i doubt that.
However,they´re hard to label,i´ll admit to that.
Story tells that the hardware for them was sent from japan to taiwan and the woodwork was done in taiwan for some reason.
Me i dunno,but the general impression of the builds tells me they´re not taiwanese but japanese.

We DO know that some semis indeed were built in japan on behalf of Epi however.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 19, 2009, 12:59:59 AM
Guys,with all due respect for this being the Washburn forum i believe that pictures indeed tell a thousand words.
So..i post these mainly to examplify jap build quality.

Please study the details to get an idea.
These pictures are prime examples of highend jap build quality and materials.

First up is a 1980 vintage Aria Masterpiece.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_29~0.JPG)

Notice how the arch is cut.It´s basicaly one big sweep...

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_9~13.JPG)

IMO the most beutiful setneck in existance.Gibson is trying to duplicate that as a worlds first at the moment...yeah yeah..
Notice how the neck is set.

Then for Matsumoku specifics and then on an LS700 transition.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_23~1.JPG)
The philips setscrew typical for SETNECK Uncle Mats.
Either one or two of these normaly.
Please also study how the pup cutout has been performed.

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 19, 2009, 01:05:18 AM
(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_13~7.JPG)
The LS700 is built like a lespaul.
Ie;mahogony body and maple top.
At the era typical spalted maple neck.
Obviously the top of this one is three piece.
But..again..check out the details.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_7~18.JPG)

Indeed unmolested Brazilian rosewood.
Check how compact it is,and altho the pics doesn´t tell the entire story from that respect the graining of it is downright beutiful.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_16~6.JPG)

Here we get a clear view of how the neck is put together.Even the maple is A++.As you flip the axe around the reflections in the wood really changes.

This much for typical highend Uncle Mats[;)]
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 20, 2009, 09:20:18 AM
This is an awesome thread. Despite solid conclusions, I've learned alot i didn't know previously...

1)Mat definitely built semi hollow guitars.

2)It's unlikely that the 4 digit, gibson-esque tone-pro bridge HB's were some of them, but earlier string through's may have been.

3)A whole lot about Matsumoku builds, and how to identify them (thanks Racing)

4)That there are probably other Japanese shops, aside from Yamaki and Matsumoku, that were building guitars for Washburn, and quality was high across the board.

If we could find some trace of the 4 digit numbers...be them from the HB or the J6, seems to me that is likely the culprit. Gitfiddles J6 looks exactly like my HB in finish and appointments...could these be Ibanez builds, as Squint suggested?

Seems that in the late 80's a couple of things were occurring...Mat closed it's doors due to business issues. It's logical to assume that if one Japanese guitar manufacturer of good standing was suffering, others were as well. That means that Washburn had to determine where to move at least some production, and what guitars would continue to be made....

Maybe they suspended the HB for a year or two, then resurrected it once supplier issues were resolved. That would explain the distinct difference between the wing headstock/string through v the gibson headstock/hard tail, and the seemingly 2 or three year gap in serial numbers.

Here's what we have from Washburn on the subject:

1982...wing headstocks and string throughs...

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/Washburn1982Electrics-10-HB35HB35DL.jpg)

1984..more of the same

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/Washburn1984ElectricsCatalog-06-J4H.jpg)

Now..Jump to 1989..you've got the gibson headstock on the hb-60..just like mine but with an elaborate inlay...but the -35 has the wing.

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/1989-HB35HB50HB60.jpg)

So where does mine fall? I've got 8148, no inlay.

This guitar is JUST like mine, but with an inlay...serial 84xx...the owner was led to believe it's an 84 Matsumoku, but the literature doesn't really support that

(http://i421.photobucket.com/albums/pp300/mmenege/100_0063.jpg)

SO, going out on a limb here...what if in 88 they were working with new suppliers to determine who would RE-introduce the HB, and what appointments it would have going forward...and they went to a shop that was already building HB's for other companies, and simply incorporated some branding to get a good guitar to market quickly...the result being a limited number of guitars with slight variations...then by 89, they settled on the line.....


that would explain some of the gaps and variations...but it's speculative, a product of my imagination...

Washburn CS or others...are there other catalogs filling that 3 year gap..85-88..that you could share? I've never seen any.

Thoughts?




Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 20, 2009, 02:55:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Racing

We DO know that some semis indeed were built in japan on behalf of Epi however.



Absolutely Epiphone Sheratons were made at Mat according to Mat. org. Incidentally Sheratons have a 5 piece neck however I don't know if that was always the case.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 20, 2009, 03:12:27 PM
Here is an interesting link about Mat, you can take it for face value since it is Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matsumoku
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 20, 2009, 03:22:48 PM
racing, since mat closed shop in 87 what do you suppose happened to the unfinished guitars, left over materials and etc? Do you suppose they had completed every guitar and used all the materials that were on hand?

I think it is highly unlikely that every job was wrapped.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 20, 2009, 03:36:33 PM
A word on Jap quality, I have an Epi FT130 elcheapo acoustic, Norlin made in Japan. The bolt on neck is not mounted aligned with the center line, the neck slot is about 1/8 too wide and the bridge is mounted about 1/8 off center (too high). I am in the process of making the repairs to this impossible to intonate guitar.

My point here is not to read too much into Jap built guitars as pure quality there is too much evidence that is contradictory. I will get some photos to show what I have stated if need be. As for which factory was it made, I have no idea, just Japan is confirmed.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 20, 2009, 04:17:48 PM
WM.
Agreed.
Hence why the imperative word here is HIGHend jap guitars,cause they sure as hell produced lemons as well.
They didn´t really shape up across the board until the very late 70s,and then SOME and some alone.
There´s way to many examples of sub par axes out of japan.

However,those that ARE highend are highend it´s not even funny from time to time.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 20, 2009, 06:52:21 PM
correct racing, the motive for moving to Japan was profits, same with Korea, China and Indonesia.

No telling where the next plant will be.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 20, 2009, 07:49:38 PM
interesting article;

The complex story of Yamaki guitars is entwined with the histories of a number of other Japanese companies. In the late 1940s, brothers Yasuyuki and Kazuyuki Teradaira started working for Tatsuno Mokko, an instrument-building firm that later split into two different companies, one of which was called Hayashi Gakki. In 1954 Hayashi Gakki was bought out by Zenon, a large music distributor. In 1962 Yasuyuki left Zenon to start an instrument distributor he called Daion, which means “big sound” in Japanese. In 1967 Kazuyuki left Zenon to produce classical guitars under the name Yamaki, an auspicious Japanese word meaning “happy trees on the mountain.” By the early 1970s, Kazuyuki expanded the Yamaki line to include a large number of steel-string guitars, many of which were based on C.F. Martin and Co.’s designs and were distributed exclusively through Daion. Along with Yamaki guitars, Daion sold instruments from Shinano, Mitsura Tamura, Chaki, and Hamox, some of which were built by Yamaki at various times, and Harptone guitars, which they imported from the US.

Sometime in the late 1960s, Daion began exporting Yamaki guitars to America, where they were well received. By the early 1980s, however, Daion felt that the Yamaki Martin-style guitars were getting lost among similar instruments from other Japanese builders like Takamine, Yasuma, and C.F. Mountain, so they redesigned the entire acoustic line and started building acoustic-electrics and solid-body electrics as well as oddities like double-neck acoustics. They dropped the Yamaki name and rebranded their instruments as Daion guitars. Daion began an extensive advertising campaign to introduce the new line around 1982, but this was a time when musicians were more interested in the new MIDI-equipped synthesizers than in guitars. In 1984 Daion stopped importing guitars to America and soon went out of business. Yamaki, on the other hand, survived the downturn of the 1980s and now makes parts for other Japanese guitar companies.

http://pinebaskets.tripod.com/guitar.html
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 20, 2009, 07:56:49 PM
there are lots of folks on here with Yamaki Acoustics from the early 80's, myself included. Fine guitars.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 21, 2009, 03:57:44 AM
The flipside to this is that as the HIGHend jap guitars are turning vintage by any standard,and are exactly that...highend...and we see a price development of the Fs and Gs of the world we´ve come to notice how the jap axes is starting to follow suite.
For better for worse.
As i´m more of a Mat and Yamaki fan than a diehard Washburn enthusiast-a good guitar is a good guitar no matter what the headstock says-i´ve come to follow the development of prices over for instance e-bay.
In the last yr alone i´d say it´s fair to state that asking prices of the Aria ProIIs of Matsumoku has increased approx 100%.

Thing is that the japanese guitars of the era are like a payload from a scattergun from a quality POW.
Ie,you´d better know what to look for in short,and that basicaly means investing some time infront of the pooter.
Doing so though,there ARE bargains to be had.Plenty even.

As far as Yamaki and Daion..yup.Again agree.
WM.
If you´ve even been upclose with a power XX... *LOL*..if not...do so.Just trust me on this.
It is a work of art,and there´s not ONE flat surface on the entire axe.

Back ontrack tho,and then with the Washburns i suppose.
Even the wing series guitars differ quite much.
Some of the Ravens i´ve run into has given the impression to have been more or less tossed together.
Neck pockets that have been cut by a blind man,rendering that the neck can be shifted around it´s not even funny...
..which in turn is about as far as you´ll get from an Eagle or Falcon.
To the point where it´s hard to fathom that they all are within the same line of guitars.
Build quality difference is THAT big.

If you ever run into one of the original Yamaki made Eagles or Falcons,pick one up and try it out.
IMO they are amazing guitars with a build and material quality bar none.

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 21, 2009, 11:17:00 AM
Gitfiddle,
did you read my theory at the end of my lengthy post?

Essentially, I believe these 4 digit s/n(beginning with 8) hollow bodies were built while Washburn was wandering in the supplier wilderness...looking for a new home for those builds. If this were true, it could be any of a number of Japanese manufacturers, or possibly early Korean. I like Squints suggestion that Ibanez could have been involved, as they were building the same type of boxes, and design elements of ours are identical to theirs.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 21, 2009, 03:32:27 PM
quote:
wandering in the supplier wilderness...looking for a new home for those builds


I like this phrase because in so many ways it describes American supply chain management after the mid-70's.   Things were being made elsewhere (but designed and specified here -- closer to the end-used consumer).  Even in Japan and Korea economics impacted who could be a supplier.. and who could be a sub (Taiwan and China).  CNC was coming along in he 80's (very big -- I did contract work - COBOL -  for U.S. Amada Buena Park who sold CNC).  U.S. Amada had a database that viewed all the sold robotics as replacable  and essentially would make offers to get a machine back and resell it -- to get the new customer (and financed everything they sold).  

ALL flesh and blood workers everywhere were competing with CNC.)  Very similar thinking at Sumicom/Sumitomo computers.  Everything is always in play.  (at one point in addition to system design and development, I was teaching a lot of Japanese executives how to get around in L.A. LOL ... if you get to Valencia or Ventura you've gone too far.  and confusing numbers -- the 5, the 55, the 405, the 105, the 605, the 710, the 110 freeways)..the 91 goes back to Buena Park!!  (we're not in Kansas any more)

I see your 8 theory.  THAT theory explains the made in the Chicago tradition sticker as well.  I really lucked out.  Somebody did a really great job (somebody at Washburn too).  

Here in California there are so many phone rooms selling cheap guitars out of their garage.  I know some people who have bought them ($80-$100) and liked them.  No support.  What does that do to the under $500 market?  What happens to the $500-$1500 niche?  (I think it shifts)  and then what about the high end brand names?  

My theory is that under $100 is a consumable .. like a box of computer paper.  It gets no respect and is tossed in the dumpster when they get tired of it (or move out or go off to college)

I notice a kind of non-committal in the no-lessons market ... make noise and toss it. Hopefully there will be people who want to learn to play a good guitar. We'll see.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 21, 2009, 05:44:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tio Kimo

Gitfiddle,
did you read my theory at the end of my lengthy post?

Essentially, I believe these 4 digit s/n(beginning with 8) hollow bodies were built while Washburn was wandering in the supplier wilderness...looking for a new home for those builds. If this were true, it could be any of a number of Japanese manufacturers, or possibly early Korean. I like Squints suggestion that Ibanez could have been involved, as they were building the same type of boxes, and design elements of ours are identical to theirs.



TK I seriously doubt that any of the 84 thru 89 Washburn guitars in question were made in Korea considering that Washburn used a number of plants in Japan and the time needed to start up production. Of the research I have done there is no indication that any pre 90's Washburns were made in Korea. It appears that after 1983 Washburn used a different manufacturer to build the Guitars and that I believe explains the end of the string through models. I have yet to see or hear of a six digit serial for 84 to 88. I think the 8XXX indicated it was built in the 80's decade not specifying the exact year, it is hard to believe that they could all be 1988 and none were built between 1984 to 1987 and not documented. I think your guitar is one of the earliest produced with the Gibson style headstock. The 82 and 83 models (all V wing) I have researched do not have the headstock inlay,(same as yours) then later to dress up the Gibson style headstock the inlay was added. I also believe all of those 8XXX guitars were built in the same unknown plant. Consider that if the first 2 digits indicated the year that would leave serial numbers for only 100 guitars a year making them extremely rare and driving the price sky high. To confuse the issue the 89 ad you posted shows HB-35 with the v wing style headstock yet I have an 89xxxx with the Gibson style headstock like yours.

You may have seen on another thread my post, it my theory that all 4 and six digit serials up to 1989 are MIJ , seven dights 1990-2001 are MIK and eight or more digits 2002-current are MIC or MII.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 21, 2009, 09:19:55 PM
I think Korea is less likely, but not completely out of the question.

I completely agree that all of the 4 digit numbers were probably made at the same plant. They also match the specs of OTHER BRANDS of guitars, which would address the time needed to start up production.

As to SN's from 85 - 87, I've never seen an HB-35 from those years OR sales literature indicating they were being sold....let me reiterate...I've never seen, they may exist! Which brings us to the purpose of the thread...so that other people with other info can share it and inform us all.

Additionally, my HB, with the Gibson style headstock and NO inlay, also has a decal signature, NOT inlaid, which adds legitimacy to the idea that they were branding an established build, to bring them to market quickly. Then as production proceeded, they began to inlay not only the Washburn name, but added the deco inlay for further distinction. By '89, they settled on a supplier, and filled out the line, to what you see in the flyer.
 
Keep in mind, by '88, the ES335 format was well established, and well copied, with Aria Yamaki and Ibanez, all Japanese and all well established with an HB build....

Again...I'm throwing theories against the wall to see what sticks. My profession has been manufacturing for 20 years. I compete AGAINST, not in league with Asia, and I make a LOT of assumptions based on what seems plausible to me. FEEL FREE to poke it full of holes...at the end of the day..we've only boiled it down that much closer to the likely truth. I think our buddy Quinn has a quote to that effect in His signature. [:D]

I really appreciate the time and energy everyone is putting into this discussion.

Oh, and I just got home from PLAYING my HB in an ensemble covering the Band's Brown Album...kicked it to the bridge, gave her a little gain....sweeeeet...[8D]

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 21, 2009, 10:04:03 PM
I liked the idea that the lead 8 is the decade only and then there are XXX numbers left.  They could then sub companies A,B,C and assign them some s/n OR the s/n's may have been assigned in Chicago after they passed inspection. (no I think the s/n is a customs tracer too.)  I liked the idea that Japanese craftsmen made it BUT I am aware that Yamaha subbed several <$500's out to Taiwan entirely and just did a pass/fail inspection (and they were very good quality guitars for the price) (Incredible how many guitars are made and sold -- and apparently discarded as years roll on) I was glad to hear that Washburn was making several models in  the US and I believe Martin, Taylor, Collins, Gibson and Bluegrass brands were being US made -- also private labels like Greven.   Fender and Carvin makes electrics to go with amps.  ... how many J6s or HBs did Washburn make?   Well a few won't turn a buck so they had to make at least a 900/year.  Assume a $700 guitar costs $400 and Washburn wants $75/revenue ($25 operations/support and $50 distribution) = $475/ea (= $675,000/year @ $75 net)  and shipping to a dealer/reseller is $25 anyway (and that is $500) and the dealer sells it for $700 and keeps $125 and gives the rest to employees, insurance and the city. 1000/year means Washburn makes $75,000; 9000 = $675,000/year.  That makes some sense (otherwise why do it?) I would think they need to make >$500,000 to keep a product and look for some related revenue (like amplifiers and accessories).  So 8 + XXX makes more sense.  If the year or decade were not an issue then the s/n means 9999 -- just shy of $749.9K.  In a country of 280 million that is not an unrealistic market expectation. (I could believe that NY, Chicago and LA were 9999) ..suppose half the dealers took one .. that ought to be close to 9,000 (Washburn must have a pretty big channel).  If the tuning machines and the pickups and tailpice are considered that's a big piece of the $400 add in wiring and knobs, frets, nut .. very close to half the cost even in Asia.  How then do you make the guitar and put on a beautiful finish?  Binding, laquer, sunburst?  I do not know how they did it. ANd beautiful fretboard.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 22, 2009, 01:34:32 AM
Gitfiddle, the USA is not the only market Washburn sells in, there is UK, Canada and many more countries so the market is much greater than the USA. The shipping is huge container lots of all models of guitars I doubt that shipping would be anywhere close to $25.00. For example look at the import lawn furniture and lawn wagons with pneumatic tires from China that sell for less $100.00 and are much heavier than a guitar and take up more space.

TK, I am inclined to agree with you, I do not completely rule out Korea however I have a Korean HB-35 and they are entirely different even the OHSC's are different, the 89 is a flat case where the Korean is an arched top case and is marked made in Korea. Also the Korean case has a gold logo where the 89 case has a white logo plus the hardware is completely different.

I wasn't aware that your headstock logo is a decal, that is even more evidence that you guitar was early production.

We are all doing our homework trying to get to the bottom, one theroy is as good as the next it is all food for thought.

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 22, 2009, 06:08:42 AM
FWIW i´ll agree that production out of korea is highly unlikely before 88 at least.

As been stated the CNC revolution started taking effect,and it was far from Matsumoku alone that was in trouble.

Just take a look at the later vintage guitars of Aria that came out of korea...
Altho the first issue ones COULD be ok,the later ones(into the 90s) certainly was not.
Cost had been cut EVERYWHERE and the end product was honestly a POS.(The FS series guitars for instance)

It´s a mere fact that quality and price within reason goes hand in hand.
Sure,there has been a number of instances where sub par products has been marketed with a retail that´s just ludecrous,but in general..this holds true.
Hence why i posted the pics of prime example HIGHEND jap guitars,cause as stated..there sure was mediocer ones too.

My point being that we can within reason still determin origins of a given guitar by scrutinizing the build in itself,and altho build quality of the jap guitars went down a tad as we approached the 90s-all IMO-it sure didn´t fall like a 2 ton brick at least-which in turn CAN be said for some of the later korea build axes in comparsion.

Of course this comes down to revenues.It ALWAYS does.Simple fact,cause very rarely people get into a given market without the intention of making money.

To put some perspective on this though,and please bare in mind that this holds true for a european market-Ie;Sweden in this case....

An Aria ProII masterpiece was about on par with a new Gibson Lespaul standard retail.At the time approx 6000SEK(approx 850USD)
A mid/entry level Vantage VS600 was approx 1600SEK at the time(which is like what...220 bux?)

My point being that then as well as now the quality of the guitar in case to a degree at least can/could be referenced through the retail.

But as far as origins,the washburns out of the 80s I have at least seen upclose so far in later yrs...i seriously doubt any of them to be anything but jap made.
Some of higher quality than others,but so far none that´s shown the telltale signs of the later korea builds.
Have in mind that i do a fair share of guitars as a guitar tech on a hobby basis localy,and FWIW sort of specialize in the early 80s jap builds.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 22, 2009, 01:56:41 PM
I can't remember the specifics, but I know that Alvarez-Yairi guitars used to be numbered by the Japanese Emperors reign. I used to own an AY, and searched it out, but that was long ago. There might be some more Japanese manufacturers that use a similar type of dating system. Whenever a new Emperor would come into power, the system would advance. Washburn might have found a company that used a similar system. I'm just guessing. Oh, I love reading these topics.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 22, 2009, 07:48:18 PM
Gitfiddle,nogin007,/ we are approaching the issue from all angles at this point one guess is as good as the next. So far nothing has been proven or dis-proven. I wish we could get more Washburn owners admirers of the older models to chime in with their 2 cents.

I feel sure there is someone that has a lot of information on the place where Washburns were manufactured and information on serial numbers.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on September 23, 2009, 07:47:40 PM
quote:
I wish we could get more Washburn owners admirers of the older models to chime in with their 2 cents.


Where do all the guitars go?  You see hundreds of them in Guitar Center and local retailers, Costco sells them, Wal-Mart ..and you have to wonder where they go (and disappear forever).  Thousands of them (just locally) and vanished into thin air.

One thing to bear in mind, of course, is that in order for Washburn to penetrate markets that Gibson and Fender (and possibly Gretsch and Guild) dominated, it had to offer an very impressive product at a very impressive price.  So the J6 and other hollow bodies were much better bang for the dollar than the higher priced brands. (WHich is why I looked at it)  Asia made it possible to do that with cost plus positioning that made sense (to investors as well as customers).  Then windows may have closed as demand changed (for those models) and the dollar changed in relation to Yen and Mark ( >October 1987).  At some points  there may have been some critical choices made about product line.  It is certainly true today (newer Asian sources, wood inventories, QC, demand).  Constant discussions about Martins and Taylors in accoustic groups.  (The Martin laminated neck is a major change -- and Taylor is the electric guitar market in a big way). Gibson has marketing problems (attributable to Martin and Taylor as well as lower priced pressure).  They all speak of channels now: (Retail stores, Internet, schools and colleges, etc.)  It's a tough market.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 23, 2009, 09:16:15 PM
Gitfiddle, a lot of guitars are stored in attics and basements wasting away, others have been ruined and tossed away.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 25, 2009, 02:01:30 AM
Conclusion is that Uncle Mat and Yamaki is all good?
Isn´t there anyone out there with other ideas?

I´ve got a firm feeling that there must have been at least one other player involved.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 25, 2009, 09:44:19 AM
what about Ibanez?

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/07.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/635.jpg)


(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/18645.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/Ibanez2630.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/ibanezartist.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 25, 2009, 04:19:43 PM
TK, very close to an HB-35 IMO.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 26, 2009, 01:40:39 AM
Ibanez made by FujiGen Gakki is an exclusive as far as i know.
Ie;the Ibanez name was Fujis name for the axes made for export,and although we know of Grecos(which were at first their domestic name)made by Matsumoku i have yet to see axes the other way around.
I strongly doubt that Fuji made guitars for Washburn as they were by any means all set at Fuji with their own production coupled with the subcontract with Fender for their by know reknowned Squire JV series et al.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 26, 2009, 01:42:39 AM
Btw.
The Ibanez Artist series guitars of the early 80s also have a hell of a reputation as far as guitars,and indeed...some of them are japanese guitar ART more than anything else.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Rosco on September 26, 2009, 04:50:13 AM
Been reading this thread with interest as I have just purchased an HB35  #833549 with coil taps. I have quite a few late 70's and 80's Japanese 335's but this is my first Washie HB though I do have 2 Falcons and an Eagle and a few more modern Washies. I also own a Daion Power Mark X and to me with the string thru body they look like they could have been made in the same factory, which I assume is Yamaki.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 26, 2009, 05:37:45 AM
Which would make sense.

Outsourcing in its own right,but with everything said n done it´s just bad economics with to many players involved.
What strikes me is that we know Mat and Yam were involved,but i have a strong feeling somebody more has been onboard ship somewhere along the end of the jap era.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 26, 2009, 11:23:04 AM
Hey rosco, Welcome to the madness.
I saw your collection ([:0][:p]), and it seems you could bring a good perspective since it includes builds from most of the prominent Japanese shops. So, it seems you have an 83 string through? And It compares closely to your Daion, a brand that Yamaki built....that would make a TON of sense for the following reasons....

1) Yamaki was already knocking LOTS of Acoustic guitars for Washburn at that point
2) would explain why they(HB's) don't show up on the Matsumoku sites.
3) Would explain the quality (high)

When you look at the headstock of my HB (the mystery 4 digit vintage) is it consistent with other Japanese builds by other brands that you've come across? Tokai or later Aria? I believe that whoever was making those early string through's stopped and another Japanese house picked it up, perhaps in fits and starts....Who is a total mystery.

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/P1050007.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Rosco on September 26, 2009, 04:56:49 PM
Tio

went thru my collection and nothing like your headstock in any of the brands I have.  Yours is very pronounced compared to my HB35 so no clue I am afraid.  A few photos care of the previous owner.  Rosco.

(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/Rosco99/Washburn%20HB35/HB35w_PG.jpg)

String thru ..
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/Rosco99/Washburn%20HB35/WashburnHB35back.jpg)

Serial number and headstock
(http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/Rosco99/Washburn%20HB35/HB35serial.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Rosco on September 26, 2009, 05:16:41 PM
Tio

just another thought, purely from a cost perspective.  Looking at your headstock there is a lot of work in it, all the curves and the binding.  Beautiful work but must drive additional costs.  The later ones are more simple to make, therefore less cost.  I can imagine the factory recommending how they could cut costs or Washburn asking how to cut costs. Also having a semi made where your acoustics are being manufactured also makes sense to me.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 27, 2009, 02:47:59 AM
Rosco.
That there looks Yamaki to me at least at first glance.
Same bridge,tuners asf as the upper end Wings.
Pups seems of the same variety as well?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 27, 2009, 12:10:14 PM
Racing that guitar appears to have the belt logo tuners you mentioned in another thread. It looks like the neck may be a 5 piece examining the headstock. Notice that burly back.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 28, 2009, 10:59:48 AM
Kimo, Here is what Customer service had to say about my older HB-35, the 88 or 89 is sort of confusing, Ser# 899016. I guess it settles the country of origin issue for the older HB-35's.

Hello Bill

 

This instrument was made in either 1988 or 1989, in Japan.

 

Thank you,

 

 

Ryan Struck

Washburn Customer Service

444 E Courtland St

Mundelein, Il 60060

phone: 1-800-877-6863

efax: 1-775-703-1198

 
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 28, 2009, 08:52:15 PM
yep, it really seems like there is a gap between 85 and 88, with the 4 digits being the red headed step children.....

Thanks for the info!
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 28, 2009, 09:00:58 PM
Kimo, I think you can rest assured that your guitar was made in Japan, the remaining questions are when and where, that where also applies to mine. I specifically asked for a plant. I think Ibanez is a good guess for the plant though. I am not giving up yet, I intend to dig into this deeper time allowing.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 28, 2009, 09:15:55 PM
Kimo, the guy that had the confirmed by Washburn 1988 HB-35 on Ebay with serial 8552, perhaps if what that serial really means is 888552, Washburn just eliminated the repeating digits, that would make your serial 8881xx. Of course that could mean that no guitars would have made in the 84 to 87 years.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 28, 2009, 09:51:29 PM
I dunno, I think that last one is quite a stretch. They are 4 digit numbers, plain and simple. Washburn used that format again when they were having Tacoma build acoustics domestically, according to owners of those guitars.

I agree that Japan is pretty much assured. I also believe that Uncle Mat is out of the question. I think that that Rosco's observation is significant, since he can compare two guitars, of the same vintage, and state for certain where one of them is built. Yamaki was building these and putting there brand name on them, FACT. They were simultaneously building acoustics for themselves and Washburn and simply branding them differently, FACT. SAME guitars. It stands to reason that they were doing the same with HB's and again, we have ONE person who owns BOTH brands and attests to the build similarities. To me that is the closest we've come to conclusive. And, as MANY people will say, Yamaki built guitars of the highest quality in the early 80's, so it's hardly a knock to state Yamaki instead of uncle Mat.

So...with all that in mind, Yamaki comes out in the lead, in my opinion, as the likely builder of the HB's, although I still wonder about that 85-87 span. ARE THERE ANY OF THAT VINTAGE OUT THERE???

IF there is in fact a gap in sales of this model, then the possibility is high that when it resumed, it was at an alternate location. BUT, Yamaki continued to build acoustics for Washburn into the 90's...so maybe they just changed the style a bit.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on September 29, 2009, 01:15:55 AM
I think you´re on the right track Tio.
Something to have in mind as far as hardware,design asf is that the wings were discontinued and it might very well be that as they were the design was altered for the HB as well-that indeed carried leftovers from the wing series guitars.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 29, 2009, 01:27:32 PM
Racing, However the 1989 ad TK posted shows the wing headstock on the HB-35. There don't seem to be many wing style non string through guitars around.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 29, 2009, 01:35:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tio Kimo



I still wonder about that 85-87 span. ARE THERE ANY OF THAT VINTAGE OUT THERE???




There don't appear to be any of the 85-87 span out there, I haven't see any and don't know of anyone that claims to have one.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 29, 2009, 04:37:48 PM
Gitfiddle, How can we be certain they were selling the HB-35 all through the 80's?  Washburn has been building the HB-35 since 1979 according to everything I have read. There is no question as to the HB-35 being built in the early 80's it is the mid-span that is questionable. As for what happens to the guitars is that many are lost to storms, fires and other disasters also many are broken or allowed to deteriorate and are thrown away.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 29, 2009, 05:17:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Gitfiddle

We can be certain they were selling those models all through the 80's.  So the serial number doesn't mean '88  it means something else.  



What makes you say that?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 29, 2009, 06:17:11 PM
TK, If you haven't already done so, why not shoot an email to CS and see what they have to say about your HB-35? If you already did it, will you share me what they had to say?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 29, 2009, 09:54:30 PM
at the time i purchased this, I was looking at several older vintage guitars, and was having a running conversation with CS. Sort of like..what about this one? thanks! what about this one ok thanks what about this one?

It was this conversation that provided me with the flyers and a pretty good understanding of what Washburn knows about that chapter.

Here was the exchange surrounding the guitar I own...

I have continued looking for older versions of this guitar, and found another. It also appears to be older, with the serial number 8148, but looks much different than the ones in the sales flyers. It has a creme bound headstock. ala the body and the f holes, and a tone pros style bridge. I'm thinking this is an 88, and not an 81...any thoughts?

Reply:
Well unfortunately our serialized database doesn’t go back that far, so you’re probably right.

I’ll attach some catalog photo’s from that era.

Thanks,

Stacy Puckett
Customer Service Rep
U.S. Music Corp.
444 E. Courtland St.
Mundelein, IL 60060



They sadly just don't have any data, so they understandably can't make a statement as the manufacturer. I suspect that someone there has gone through the same sort of deduction process we are, but really can't share speculation. I, on the other hand, am not bound by any such concerns. [:p]
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 30, 2009, 10:22:15 AM
TK, Thanks for sharing that info, I figured you were probably ahead of the game. I had heard similar to the lack of records from someone else and that was why I was reluctant contact CS about mine. I didn't figure it would provide any info. I am still confused as to why mine is either 88 or 89, perhaps it was made around the new year. My serial being 89xxxx I was convinced it was definitely a 1989. The confirmation that it was made in Japan resolved the country of origin question though.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 30, 2009, 11:19:37 AM
This is from Teagles book, so take it for what it's worth.   He doesn't say what the first year of manufacture was, or what companies made them.   1983 saw Washburn adding a new twist to the HB35, adding a bridge with strings through the body(copying the Fender Telecaster). Washburns HB35 was a dot neck model with exposed coil humbuckers. Coil taps connected to the volume controls added variety to the sounds. A deluxe version, the HB35DL, featured a multiple bound, curly maple body with wing inlays and gold hardware. A new wiring arrangement added a switch to the four knobs and selector arrangement. Instead of two volume pots and two tones, the DL had Master Volume, Master Tone, and a quasi-parametric EQ with controls for Frequency and Gain. Blonde and Burgandy were added options for '84, as was a vibrato tailpiece assembly, a novel twist. Public response was slow, and the model was soon discontinued.   (continued)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on September 30, 2009, 11:31:08 AM
A more traditionally configured HB35 returned in '89, set up with standard stop tailpiece, tune-a matic bridge, and electronics. Block inlays and gold hardware were now stock. A more ornate model, the HB60, had multiple-ply binding and pearl and abalone split-block markers on an ebony fingerboard. Pearl tuner buttons and a bound tortoise shell pickguard were the finishing touches on this short-lived model. The 60 and 35 combined in '90 to become the third edition HB35. A new all pearl(no abalone) split block marker fingerboard reverted to rosewood and the pickguard lost it's binding. The selector switch was moved to the upper bout's bass side. Flamed sycamore became an option in '93(HB35S) and standard in '94, at which time maple began to be used for the necks instead of mahogany.
    This is from pages 172 and 173 of Teagles book. As you know, he has some mistakes in his book.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on September 30, 2009, 12:22:46 PM
that sounds completely legit to me. No HB's from 85 - 87. 88 SOMEBODY started establishing build parameters (4 digit, bound gibby headstock) and then for '89, they rolled out the new revamped line, as shown in the sales flyer included above. That makes complete sense, and makes my guitar a bit more exclusive.

So the question we started with, and STILL have is....WHO built them?
I think all signs point to Yamaki for the 79 - 84 vintage, and it sounds like there may actually be a trail for the 89's and later....so the 88's remain a mystery (I personally DO believe that the 8xxx SN's represent 1988 vintage)

Problem is though, that I can't prove an '83, for example, ISN'T a Matsumoku any more than the seller can prove it is.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 30, 2009, 11:36:30 PM
TK, I agree I would like to know what information they have that leads them to claim they are Matsumoku built. The way it goes is you can claim anything you please as long as it cannot be proven false. Myself I refuse to make claim of anything that I cannot legitimately backup.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on October 01, 2009, 10:30:09 PM
It appears this is finished for the time being anyway!
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 01, 2009, 10:38:05 PM
he he..just comin' around to stir the pot!

check this out...'83 flyer. 3 documented Matsumoku builds with our HB.

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/BYipmNgBGkKGrHgoH-DYEjlLl4iEBKiHCjd.jpg)

I still think as this point they were Yamaki, but interesting grouping nonetheless.

I think until Rudy comes wandering along with a first person statement, it'll remain a mystery.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on October 01, 2009, 11:31:14 PM
Wow, you guys are still at it, but it does make good reading.

I agree that Teagle's info makes sense of differences in the designs, and serial numbers.  Especially, if you consider the following.  The serial # indicates when it was built, which is much earlier than when it would have been available to be sold.  Slow boat from Japan, then trucked to Chicago for final inspection, prior to distribution to dealers = many months.  For example, 88XX built guitars were most likely sold as 1989 model guitars.  Additionally, promotional material like brochures/price lists have several month lead times. Dealers needed info to place orders, so the info was first released prior to the end (Sept-Nov) of the year before.  So, if a continuing model was changing some, hopefully they would have a prototype to photograph for the brochure.  However, if a factory closed, lawsuit ensued, or production had to be stopped/moved, then maybe the guitar photographed for the brochure, ended up not being what was actually sold the following year.  

Sounds like it might be possible that a 1989 brochure shows an earlier style HB-35, and the ones that got sold in 1989 not only looked different, but had 8X XX serial numbers!

I also agree with TK that based on Racing's earlier info for the first Eagles/Hawks being built by Yamaki, and their design/hardware similarities to the early HB's it seems very likely that they were also built by Yamaki.  I still don't think that any HB-35's were built before 1981, or sold before 1982, but someone may come forward with one/or an origianl price list to prove me wrong.  Always something more to learn.

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on October 02, 2009, 10:13:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gtracer

Wow, you guys are still at it, but it does make good reading.

Sounds like it might be possible that a 1989 brochure shows an earlier style HB-35, and the ones that got sold in 1989 not only looked different, but had 8X XX serial numbers!




The problem there is that my serial is 89xxxx, see the post above where Washburn says maybe a 1988 or 1989, made in Japan.

It seems as though when we close one gap another opens up.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on October 02, 2009, 10:17:52 PM
Tk, that is an interesting ad however I agree with where built is still a mystery!
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on October 05, 2009, 11:49:34 AM
My Serial number is J6 space 8839 and the tag says In the Chicago Tradition  -- but I deduce is was made in Asia.  Pictures:
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/J6three.JPG
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/paulJ6NP.JPG

The guitar is a lot prettier than the pictures show .. the two bands I play in are Swing Street and the Saints -- and the song books are on the shelf.  Notice the tailpiece is a Gibson L5 type tailpiece and the fretboard is a copy of Gibson and really nice .. beautiful.   The pearl seems to be real pearl and also beautiful.   The toggle switch is in a different location than the L5.  Over the years I have had several set ups and I had the frets dressed once .. getting SD SH55 Seth Lovers SO here are TWO incredible electric guitars.  
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: bookman on October 05, 2009, 11:57:33 AM
and I...what?

Gitfiddle!!...where did you go, man??[:0]
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: mrjoe_smith2004 on October 06, 2009, 03:50:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gtracer
Sorry, for the long post.  If anyone has any earlier/later HB-35 or J-6 S/N's matching a different version, please let me know.


ANOTHER PROUD MEMBER OF THE FESTIVAL GUILD



HB-35 s/n 91xxxxx

more details:
http://forums.washburn.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10163

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on October 08, 2009, 08:38:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wmjonson
The problem there is that my serial is 89xxxx, see the post above where Washburn says maybe a 1988 or 1989, made in Japan.



Hey WM, maybe I wasn't so clear with my explanation.  Your serial #, 89XXXX, indicates to me that it was built in 1989, but probably ended up being sold in 1990.  Which disagrees with the info that Washburn sent you.  However, I do agree with them that it was made in Japan.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on October 08, 2009, 08:49:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mrjoe_smith2004
HB-35 s/n 91xxxxx



Hey mrjoe, Thank you for the post.  Your's appears to be one of the first Korean built HB's, and clearly indicates that production started at least in July of 1991.  Additionally, the design changes indicate a change in design and manufacturer.

How many piece neck does your's have?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: mrjoe_smith2004 on October 13, 2009, 08:46:13 AM
quote:
Originally posted by gtracer

quote:
Originally posted by mrjoe_smith2004
HB-35 s/n 91xxxxx



Hey mrjoe, Thank you for the post.  Your's appears to be one of the first Korean built HB's, and clearly indicates that production started at least in July of 1991.  Additionally, the design changes indicate a change in design and manufacturer.

How many piece neck does your's have?

ANOTHER PROUD MEMBER OF THE FESTIVAL GUILD



You're welcome!
You may count and tell me because I don't know nothing about guitars construction :-(

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee126/user_smith/residente/IMG_1501.jpg)
(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee126/user_smith/residente/IMG_1502.jpg)

(http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee126/user_smith/residente/IMG_1503.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on October 13, 2009, 08:38:58 PM
Actually, it's 7 if you count the headstock wings, but it's usually referred as a 5-piece neck. Thank you!
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on October 14, 2009, 12:47:29 AM
I have been busier'n a two ______ goat.  Been playing (and arranging) almost 7 days a week (this last few weeks) J6 is still in the shop -- he is not working on it.   I got in there now twice a week and build a fire.   The other shops in San Diego are all slow too .. Moze and Blue Guitar.  They get too much work.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: tonks on October 14, 2009, 03:31:32 PM
hey guys just been reading this thread with interest as i have the washburn HB 35-dl the serial number is 83xxxx which i guess was made in 1983.its exactly the same as the one in the 83 flyer.if you guys are intested i will post some photos when i get time.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 14, 2009, 03:43:47 PM
for sure tonks, photos are always welcome under ANY circumstances!

Your vintage is really the one in question. NO questions about year, quality, characteristics...only WHICH japanese house actually delivered the goods.

what's your story....how long have you had it? like it? what d'ya play on it? etc etc.

welcome to the fray!
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: tonks on October 15, 2009, 12:27:46 PM
hello again heres some pictures of my guitar

http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0395.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0399.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0400.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0401.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0405.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0406.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0407.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0408.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0409.jpg
http://www.tonks22.karoo.net/Photo0415.jpg


Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: tonks on October 15, 2009, 01:00:03 PM
ok ive had this guitar about 10 years or so, i bought it off a friend for $300 after i sold my gibson les paul. i love this guitar its beautiful to play and has such a lovely sound. the only thing i dont like about this guitar is the fact that the scratch plate is missing and thats it. i dont play seriously but i have played for nearly 20 years on and off generally playing anything indie or up to date although i do like to play a fair bit of u2.im not sure of the value of this guitar but to be honest i wouldnt sell it unless it was worth a small fortune
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on October 16, 2009, 12:48:19 AM

I got my J6 back from the shop.  It has the Seymour Duncan/Seth Lover pickups and the luthier always does a little schmaltz so its about perfect (I had to raise the strings about a half turn on each side) .. It sounds beautiful.  $330.  

I have been playing it all night: solos, riffs, jazz blues, songbook stuff ... lovely lovely lovely sound.   All positions.  This is a top line jazz guitar ..  next to any other jazz guitar. (my amp is a Fender 85 - great amp).  I'm in love again.  

I played a gig yesterday (the Hamer: a perfect guitar) and tomorrow I will play the J6.  I have a Sunday afternoon gig and have been playing blues in a black blues club on 43rd.  (I get them out of their seats and they ask for more).    

I have been arranging for our band (since Tom got sick) and I am not as good at it (Bb and Eb instruments)  So I had the clarinet all messed up on Wednesday and the flute and I shared the same lead sheets.  

BUT MY MESSAGE is the Seth Lover pickups -- oh how beautiful they sound.  The old pickups have NO stampings on them.  I left them at the luthier .. they are very tired. He suspects they are ceramic .. the SD's are Alnico. Incredible sound.  




Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 16, 2009, 05:38:26 AM
Happy for you GF. Wish I could come out with my girl and enjoy the sweet tones in person. Perhaps someday. No Idea on the amp.

Cheers
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: bookman on October 16, 2009, 10:46:08 AM
Hello GF:

I wish you'd send along some pics of your equipment....sounds like great stuff!

If I ever get out to San Diego, I'm gonna look you up & sit in with you on one of your many gigs!


Hudson
On The Battlefield
Franklin, Tennessee
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on October 17, 2009, 11:06:43 AM
Here are the two Washburnshttp://members.cox.net/ppitt1/J6three.JPG
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/paulJ6NP.JPG
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/D10two.jpg

Here is the Hamer Newport -- also has Seth Lover pickups and a beautiful guitar.  A dream to play. http://www.hamerguitars.com/?fa=detail&mid=387

Here is the Gibson http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/Bloghome.htm
also   http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/IMGP0563.JPG
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/paulGuitr.JPG

I like all of them .. and never say I will not buy another.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: bookman on October 17, 2009, 11:52:57 AM
GF,

Great looking equipment!

Sounds like you're a busy person, regardless of the time of year or season...

Hope the gig today goes well for you.


Hudson
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on October 26, 2009, 11:30:15 PM
I have been working on Frim Fram Sauce with a fem jazz singer.  Sound like this (but not us) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPt3CldUg_U&feature=related  (I am not as good the guy on you tube) -- also How High Moon (some nice riffs) , You Go to My Head http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp0JRxfF3k&feature=related (Anthony Wilson on guitar with Diana Krall), Goody Goody  and Summer Samba .. let me know if you want chords or lead sheets.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Gitfiddle on October 29, 2009, 12:23:08 PM
wmjohnson ... good synopsis.  Brings focus.  Too bad history was not recorded.  My J6 (8839) may not be the only HB with that serial number (someone else -- I thought -- had 8839 but not a J6)    ... the entire serial number is J6 space 8839 and the purpose of a serial number is to register and support products (and to prevent counterfeiting) so as long as Washburn was convinced your guitar is authentic they'd respect your warranty.  ... Washburn distributor) had to do some tracking with the guitar maker (QC, inclusions, finishing touches).  

General speaking, it seems, it is not the guitar company (Gibson, Martin, Taylor, Washburn) that is keeping the history updated.  It's collectors and users like us.  

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on November 16, 2009, 08:41:42 AM
Hi Guys,

just came across the forum, searching for info on my HB-35,

I believe it's exactly the same as Tio Kimo's, but black,
the serial number is 8292, one of the ones not seen often it seems.

Here's a pic from when I first got it (around 2-3 years ago)

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/El_Dijevieto/Picture105.jpg)

I've since changed all the electronics, tuners, knobs and chromed the existing hardware,
I didn't keep any of the original stuff either, but may have photo's somewhere from when I sold it all off.

Cheers,

Brad
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on November 16, 2009, 09:08:43 AM
Welcome to the forum,Brad, I hope you've found some useful info along with all the (useless?) speculation!

Yours does look just like mine. I'm assuming since you chose to invest in it that you like it?

Questions:
Pickups - what did you go with?
Bridge - I've read that the post spacing is slightly different than standard (tonepros etc) Did you re-plate the existing or replace the bridge and stop, and if the latter...what did you find to be the case?

~kimo


~kimo
http://www.oldtownschool.org/
81 Washburn D-60S(W) Timber Ridge (Yamaki)
'88 Washburn HB-35TS
'92 Washburn EA20-12N
'03 Washburn Idol WI-67PROQTS
'04 Larrivée LV-03 w/ Fishman blend
Roland Cube 30X
Songworks Little Lanilei 3350LT

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on November 16, 2009, 05:17:36 PM
Hi Kimo,

yes, tons of information, along with tons of speculation haha!

It's a great guitar, very resonant and sustains like nothing else.

The pickups are unpotted SD 59's, having the 59's unpotted really opens them up, very 3D and vintage.

With the bridge, you are correct, I couldn't get anything to fit, I had one adjuster screw missing also, so I machined a new screw, and got the bridge and tailpiece re plated.



Cheers,

Brad
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on January 28, 2010, 02:36:41 PM
Hi All,
Thanks to you all for researching these mysterious guits.

Having recently purchased a string-thru HB35 from the bay, research on who made it led me here. I wanted to add more conjecture, as concrete evidence is hard to come by.

When I received said guitar(#832846), I was pretty convinced, based on available data here and elsewhere, it was Yamaki-made.
I no longer am so certain and am now leaning more towards Mat. Many reasons for this but for starters, apparently the Wing series were all switched over to Mat in 81-82 and the hardware on these Wings(Falcon and Hawk anyway) and the string-thru HB35's is identical as are the neck and truss cover. It seems that the timeframe is parallel with these. Basically 82-84.

Also in the 'Help with dating HB35'(http://forums.washburn.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14181) thread there is a photo(by King of Stuntmen) of his same, non-serial numbered version that is shown in the '89 catalog. Check out the back of the neck in the pic. That volute is very common in Washburn, Yamaki and Daion acoustics(http://daion.client.jp/image/the82/the82b.JPG)from the early 80's, all made by Yamaki.

 It has very little in common however with the earlier versions and other than the wing-style neck, is closer to the 4-digit '88 versions. Because these versions have no serial #, can we speculate that they were made between 85-88? And by Yamaki? And there seems to be a connection with both Dyna-Gakki(Joodee) and Terada(Epiphone Elitists). Were the 89-90 versions made by one of these? Many companies(ie Epiphone) switched to Samick in Korea after Mat went under. Why did Washburn supposedly wait until '91?
Another difference is the actual shape of the dog-ears. The string-thrus are more rounded, whereas the inside curve on later versions is nearly identical to 335's, ie straighter/no curve.

Another clue might be in examining a Vantage VSH-435(Mat). Also made of sycamore(rare) with very similar curves. Some hardware similarities as well.

I haven't pulled the pups or electronics out of mine yet, but from what is currently visible, no clues are given.

No matter who built it, this is by far the best guitar I have ever owned. The sound is superb with an incredible amount of sustain. I generally play rhythm in single-coil/neck mode and switch to humbucker/bridge for leads. And she does get heavily used, five nights/week gigging this time of year(tourist season in the southland).  I do break strings quite often however, that being my only complaint.

-best.



Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: marllr on February 22, 2010, 08:46:42 PM
This is a great forum with loads of great information and helpful speculation!

I recently purchased a very nice HB35 thinking it was a 90's made in Korea, but discussions and photos here lead me to think it may in fact be a 1989 MIJ.  The serial # appears hand written looking like a letter and 2 numbers D##.  Washburn support won’t commit other than to offer… “If it was made in the 80's it will be a Japanese made model. Very nice guitar.”

To me it looks just like the '89 Washburn brochure in the forum, and a couple of other HB35s without serial #s.

Does anyone know if any of the 1990’s Korea productions look very much like the 1989 (might it be MIK)?

I will appreciate any thoughts or opinions!

Thanks!

(http://marllr.net/wb-HB35.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/WB-HB35-head.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/WB-HB35-sn2.jpg)



HB-35 MIK
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on February 22, 2010, 10:11:38 PM
well, you've apparently read the thread, so you know that FACTS are hard to come by.

I agree that this looks like '89, only in tobacco sunburst. The wing headstock, to my knowledge, didn't transfer to MIK versions.

Sweet guitar, for sure. How many digits in the SN?

What did she set you back? (if you don't mind me asking)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: marllr on February 23, 2010, 07:42:51 AM
Just the letter D and 2 digits, handwritten.  Just under $500 from a shop including setup and tax.  I am cheap and it seemed high, but the look and feel was too good to pass up!  Either way I am happy with her!

Thanks

HB-35 MIK
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on February 23, 2010, 11:13:41 AM
marllr, I dunno how experiecned you are determining woods, but if you had to choose, what would you say yours is made from?

And I may trouble you for dimensions on that pickguard as well, I understand that the pickup spacing is a bit different than a Dot or ES335, and I want to replace the pg on mine.

Glad you showed up. [8D]
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on February 23, 2010, 08:07:34 PM
Welcome marlir!  Can you tell how many pieces of wood the neck is made of?  Also, are your tuners labeled or name-less?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: marllr on February 23, 2010, 09:29:08 PM
I’m not good at identifying wood, and not sure what guitar fab choices are… not much grain, on the light side like maple or white oak.
Sorry for the rough drawing.  Also attaching some close-ups of the guard.
I can’t see any layers in the neck.  The tuners are nameless.
(http://marllr.net/HB35-neck-a.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/HB35-tuners-a.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/HB-pg-dim.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/picguarda.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/picguard2.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/picguard4a.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/picguard6.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/picguard8a.jpg)
(http://marllr.net/picguard9a.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on February 23, 2010, 09:49:43 PM
Dang, man, That's above and beyond. Thanks.

gtracer...this guitar, build and equipment wise looks JUST like mine.

Only differences I see:
MOP inlays to 15 only
wing headstock
3 digit SN.

What're you thinkin'?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on February 24, 2010, 07:58:12 PM
Thanks for the additional info marlir!  Tio - I agree, but made just before yours.  Matches the picture you started the thread with.  Could it be one of the missing links, or one of the early proto's before your version was put in production?  Interesting that marlir's has a semi-serial #.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on February 24, 2010, 08:56:11 PM
Congrats Marllr,
Sweet guit and for a really nice price.

Your's has the unmistakable Yamaki-style volute on the back of the headstock. My guess would be that it was made between '85-'88, after the string-thrus and before the 8xxx as gtracer has surmised and by aforementioned company.

You might have a look at these pics from Yamaki/Washburn/Diaon acoustics from that era.

http://home.att.net/~daion2/Page8.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/WASHBURN-6-STRING-ACOUSTIC-MODEL-D13N-MINT-CONDITION_W0QQitemZ190373645122QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar?hash=item2c53274b42   (scroll down)

I haven't figured out how to add pics, but have many with that same volute, all Yamaki-made.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on February 24, 2010, 10:40:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by gtracer

Thanks for the additional info marlir!  Tio - I agree, but made just before yours.  Matches the picture you started the tread with.  Could it be one of the missing links, or one of the early proto's before your version was put in production?  Interesting that marlir's has a semi-serial #.



Yep, the first pic in the thread is mine, and has 2 more MOP blocks, and the Gibson style headstock... the two glaring differences.

Nico is correct about the volute...I own a Yamaki built acoustic with the volute, but NOT with a wing headstock....take another look at
this...

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/1989-HB35HB50HB60.jpg)

This is the HB-35 from 1989 product line. It matches marllr's exactly...the headstock, the 15 MOP blocks, the pickguard that extends to the bridge (not color of course, but it was available), even the truss rod cover, an unmarked triangle....I dunno, I kinda think its a strong candidate.

What leads you to think it may precede the 4 digit builds??
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on February 24, 2010, 11:21:41 PM
Thanks for all your input Tio Kimo,
In studying Marllr's photos, I would theorize that these 'no serial #' models are transitions from the possibly Mat-built to the more surely Yamaki-made. My string-thru is the same vintage burst but looking closer I see far too many differences otherwise to think they were made at the same factory. The shape of the body is different at the 'ears'(mine are deeper) and the f-holes are much smaller on Marllr's, for example. Not to mention they share almost none of the same hardware.

Could it be that Washburn used one of these in the above ad but in fact were selling the 89xxxx models at that time? It would explain the oddity of having only one in the ad with a wing headstock.

Also, Yamaki had lost it's production of Daion in '84 as they went out of buisness and Washburn ended it's partnership with Mat at about the same time. Yet continued to have their acoustics made by Yamaki. I recently saw one with that pyramid volute with a serial # 89xxxxx.

Also looks like a brass nut on Marllr's. Is that stock? Yamaki/Daion were known for this I believe.

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: gtracer on February 25, 2010, 10:39:49 PM
Tio the ad photo that you reposted is what I was referring to.  Marlir's seems to have more in common with the early 4 digit serial # HB's (like yours), than the 89XXXX's
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Displacer69 on March 11, 2010, 02:13:52 PM
Hi Tio and all.
I'm completly knew to the forum and had a quick question that seemed like it fit best here.

I have a Washburn same color pattern as Tio's it has a 5 digit serial and it's hand written in there from what I can see.
I've been searching the net and most info I'm finding is that the first 2 digits point to the year but if thats correct I'm unsure how my uncle purchased it years before the serial number is saying it would have been made?

I didn't think much of the hand written serial until I seen a normal one that had it stamped into it.

does anyone have any idea's one what this means or any further insights on the first 2 digits of the serial?

Thanks
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on March 11, 2010, 02:20:45 PM
the reliability of the first 2 digit = year paradigm doesn't equate with anything before the mid nineties. Washburn was using lots of manufacturers and the ser. no. patterns were all over the place.

Do you have pics of the guitar? If it's string through with a wing headstock, it's early 80's, and a find.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Junior88 on March 11, 2010, 03:18:30 PM
Man Kimo, i'm REALLY digging that HB50 in that add you posted..

Washburn N2, Washburn F10S
I've got some other stuff too.. Everything from guitars to a Balalaika.

Official Ambassador to all new Junior Members (U-17)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on March 11, 2010, 03:22:11 PM
Right?
 
Never heard anything about 'em. Saw that add, saw some reviews on Harmony central, but never seen anyone here commenting on one, never seen one on ebay or CL....

I'm guessing folks that have 'em are keeping 'em
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on March 15, 2010, 02:00:38 PM
Nico.

I´ve posted some pics of related guitars in this thread previously,and will do so once more to ad to the confusion.
See...the Daion Power MkXX was THE highend Yamaki electric.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_DSCN3440.JPG)

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_19~8.JPG)

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_18~10.JPG)

IMO one of the most beutifuly executed guitar builds in existance.
Only flat surface on the entire guitar is the top of the headstock... :D
Mine there is the VERY rare black in turn.(Most seem to be green,tan or rosewood)
Now...main point of interest as far as the HBs on debate,or more to the point the early ones,is the bridge really.
See...the very specific bridge was used mainly on Yamaki built guitars and IF any of them indeed were built by Mat,Mat in turn surely didn´t make them.These bridges are not used on ANY other Matsumoku built guitar to my knowledge in that case.
Whilst almost ALL other series Uncle Mats indeed share bridges...
Like...the Aria Pro II TA-70 semi i just picked up that carries the RS series bridge,as does my twin neck supertwin 1512.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_DSCN3439.JPG)
Check out the relief lettering infront of the saddles,and it is the MkXX ONLY that carries this.
(The MkX does not for instance,none of the Wings do asf asf asf)
Yuuup....it says Daion,while still being the EXACT same bridge used for the wings i´ve run into-which is a few by now.

If you ask me...that there in the pics to a degree is the pinacle of handbuilt jap guitars.
Absolutely amazing...and due to it being as sculptured as it is it weighs in at a mere 3.3kg.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on March 15, 2010, 02:28:50 PM
[:0][:0][:0][:0][:0][:0]
Racing...that is seriously amazing. Not too often do you see something that is truly unique AND beautiful(in terms of guitars)....one OR the other, but seldom both. This qualifies.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on March 15, 2010, 03:09:26 PM
I can´t but agree Tio.
Albeit this being a Washy forum you know since previously that my main interest isn´t Washburns per se,but more so the highend japanese guitars of the era.
One i at least doubt we´ll ever see return.

The Yamaki built Daions(Daion was Yamakis housebrand) of the MkXX series was as noted by some so far before its time it´s downright ludecrous.
For instance...a compound cut fretboard,back in 1981..(Mine there is an -82 vintage btw)
However,pics is one thing and i can´t express firmness enough in that getting to handle one of these rather rare birds IRL and up close is a WAY different matter.
It´ll make a Gibby from the same era look like a friggin brick...
Hardware in general though is the same as for the same era Washburn-as these indeed were built by the same people.
Whilst an early -80s Eagle IMO is a very well performing instrument and beutiful to look at too...this...this steps the fight up a couple of notches.
Bluntly put...the axe doesn´t carry ONE flaw.
Period.
What´s more,the physical feel of the axe is that it feels MUCH more nimble and small than it really is.
Only thing that really distincts it as an early -80s Yamaki product is the neck profile-which is very Lespaul -59ish in cut.
From an ergonomy POW i´d say that to this day it is rivaled by for instance guitars like the Parker et al.
That aside tho...this is one of the true GEMS of what the japs were capable of when they set their hearts to it...
MASSIVE amounts of attack and tone..to the degree where you need to roll tone off at the guitar to say 7-8..and it´ll sustain ´til the cows come home.
..and as you point out...it is a true work of art to look at.
Even more so up close,and the more time you spend with it the more details become evident.
For instance...notice the countersunk screws keeping the pupframes to the body...

I´ve spent some time hunting down the neckpup for it as that was replaced by a Bartolini one as i bought it...
Likewise the knobs on it are homebrew.
We currently don´t know what it correct for this axe-seing that it is black to the colour-and when i picked it up it sported some black speedknobs.
No matter as plastic dirt cheap speedknobs don´t feel like they qualify on an axe of this magnitude,so i made a set out of brass on the lathe.
Push-on no less ;)
..and of course at least saved the speedknobs in case they ARE the stock ones...
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on March 15, 2010, 03:47:44 PM
WoW Racing that is a seriously nice guitar, I've got a couple of Wings but they're quite ugly in comparison, but as you say Japanese guitar building at that time was second to none in fit, finish and sound. If it's ok with you I'll capture your pictures and drool over them.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on March 15, 2010, 05:03:30 PM
As you might know i´ve owned a number of wings over the yrs too.
I for one find them beutiful guitars.
This tho...this isn´t a beutiful guitar,it is a work of art by true craftsmen.

I know i´m stretching it right now,but as i sincerly hope there´s more of the likes of me out there that are into highend jap guitars-not just washburns-and cause i find...credit where credit´s due...

Links are to massive blowups of some of the pics above,and i post them both as reference as well as the fact that this guitar takes being scrutinized at VERY close range.
Pics can many times be decieving...not so with the Daion Power MkXX tho...
Only drawback with them is that there ain´t all that many left to go around,so for anyone so inclined....keep a keen eye on the various ebays,craiglists and what have you not.
They´re about as scarse as hens teeth i´m sorry to say,and the lesser Daion simply don´t reach em...

http://www.102983.org/cpg145/displayimage.php?pid=1563&fullsize=1

http://www.102983.org/cpg145/displayimage.php?pid=1546&fullsize=1

http://www.102983.org/cpg145/displayimage.php?pid=1542&fullsize=1

http://www.102983.org/cpg145/displayimage.php?pid=1550&fullsize=1

http://www.102983.org/cpg145/displayimage.php?pid=1549&fullsize=1

http://www.102983.org/cpg145/displayimage.php?pid=1564&fullsize=1
(This last one is a blowup of the bridge many of you will recognize-and the handmade brass knobs by me...*lol*)

As evident from the beltrash this isn´t a closet classic of any sorts,but a 28yr old guitar that´s been used.

I apologize beforehand to anyone taking offense for me posting pics of this in a Washburn forum,but at least these downright sculptures are related to the wings,and in the end the early HBs as well.
On the other hand,seing how scarse these are there is no such thing as a dedicated Daion/Yamaki forum to my knowledge.

The rest of you...enjoy.. ;-)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on March 15, 2010, 05:22:57 PM
Btw.
Daion made their own semi as well known as the headhunter 555.
More of Daions in general,the little there is online,can be read here;
http://home.att.net/~daion/index.html
...and the semi in particular here;
http://home.att.net/~daion/headhunters.html

A...liiiiiiiiiiiittle different vs the HB to say the least,but again...built by the same people that built the early ones.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on March 20, 2010, 05:58:59 PM
Thanks for the update/pics racing. She is so exquisite in photos, I can only imagine in person. The bass player I play with uses a Power Mark xx and she also has a mark x. Those are built very well also(and almost as pretty).

The bridge is indeed identical to what's on my '83 string-thru. Pickups look the same and as I play with a guitfiddler with a CS-359, I would agree, they're very powerful, moreso than the 59's in the gibby.

Do you think Yamaki could have built the hardware? They apparently 'survived the 80's' doing it.(wiki) I also notice the Headhunter and many of the early and late (Mat) wing series share these.

Wouldn't it be nice if some ex-Mat or ex-Yamaki could just show up for questioning?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on March 21, 2010, 03:35:37 PM
Point is that the pups ain´t all that hot from a pure DC resistance perspective,and none the less the play and sound as such.
(They dial in just the other side of 8k)
I can only attest that to the builds.

That Yamaki would have cast the various hardpts...i dunno...might,but i doubt it in tradition of how japs set business up.
If you for instance check other same era jap builds many different makes often use hardpts marked Chuchin,and altho to my knowledge Uncle Mat indeed har their own hardparts i presume these were subcontracted and cast elsewhere-that´s NOT saying these were Chuchin tho!

Pups for instance were often Goto in the case of the Washies.
At least claimed to be.

I´m currently overhauling an old A-20(Ie;the neckthrough one) for an old friend.(Pics are coming up)
Clearly a Yamaki build...and marked to have seen daylight back in 1979.
Same pups,same bridge same hardware asf asf.

Btw.
I´ve seen that bridge as vibrato too.
Basicaly the identical bridge that´s been equipped with a two point fulcrum per later strat setup.
Bridge per se though looks identical apart from that it sports a hole for the trem arm.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Jay222 on May 24, 2010, 05:41:56 PM
Hi there, I have been searching for similar answers about my hb35. I bought it used in the early nineties, and I suspected it was built in the late eighties, but I'm not sure.

I did read through most of this thread, and if I understand correctly, this could be anywhere from 83 to 88 or so, most likely made in Japan. Any thoughts on this one?

(http://www.mts.net/~chamel/hb35.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: BGRooster1 on May 28, 2010, 09:59:06 PM
So much interesting info. and a lot of scratching my chrome dome.The more I read the more interest I have in owning one of these.
I understand that serial no.'s starting with an S are Korean.The guitar that I am looking at has no. SK00013512.How would you interpret this no..If I understand correctly S=Korea K=? 0001=2001 3=March?.
 Would this be the bad Korea or good?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Jack8552 on June 06, 2010, 06:56:20 AM
hi
those daions look really good.i'd like to have one but unlikely to happen.....anyway in the overall discussion going on here i'm putting up some photo's of my hb35...serial no 8552 as discussed on various forums here ......judge for yourselves and enjoy!!!!!

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2ebxwsp.jpg)

(http://i47.tinypic.com/2m765io.jpg)                    (http://i46.tinypic.com/35bsgsg.jpg)
(http://i46.tinypic.com/2mx4nc2.jpg)
(http://i45.tinypic.com/ozndz.jpg)

cheers
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: NickS on June 07, 2010, 07:37:41 PM
Nice one, Jack. Thanks for the pics.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on June 12, 2010, 04:54:17 PM
I'll second that. Very sweet Jack. I assume she may be a 1988?

For those looking, there is a mid-eighties hb35 on the bay now for a apparently great price. From what has been ascertained here, it is most likely a Yamaki-made(see the photos of the back of the neck).

Kinda wish I needed another....

http://cgi.ebay.com/WASHBURN-HB35-NATURAL-SUNBURST-JAPANESE-MIJ-RARE-/120581783749?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Guitar&hash=item1c133c00c5
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Rocket on June 12, 2010, 06:41:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nico

For those looking, there is a mid-eighties hb35 on the bay now for a apparently great price.

...and it's RARE.
(You just never see that on eBay!)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: catscratch on June 14, 2010, 08:10:56 AM
Only my opinion,but I suspect:

1. Matsumoku rather than Yamaki (Jack 8552's HB35 probably a Yamaki).
2. Probably pre 1985 (can't read the internal label but would guess late '82 -83).

That's what I suspect. This is what I know:

1. A f@#in' bitchin' piece o' craftmanship

...and it's RARE.
(You just never see that on eBay!)

 - Long live the 'bay. What you lose in (sometimes) inflated prices you gain in accessiblility!
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on June 14, 2010, 01:21:09 PM
hey catscratch, just curious. Have you seen evidence that Matsumoku was ever involved in the production of these?

Regarding that guitar....I wonder about the vintage because it's a stoptail. I believe the earliest models, only ones with a shot at being Matsumoku, were all string through.

I think the one on ebay is later, 89 or so, due to the tail, truss rod cover, and the headstock/neck configuration. (wing style headstock and blocks only to 15th fret)They are all straight out of the '89 catalog. Washburn was done with Uncle Mat by '85

No doubt though, for 279, I wish it was me that was taking a closer look.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: catscratch on June 14, 2010, 06:09:13 PM
Hi Tio,

I have no specific knowledge of Matsumoku manufacture outside what I have read in this thread. I always associated the narrow headstock with the same factory. I take your point about the advertisement and a verified date of 1989. I suspect the assumptions about the serial numbers and dates are incorrect. I have the blonde Gibson style headstocked guitar in my hand now. The seller confirms that he had it in 1985 yet, according to that theory, the serial number of 8183 suggests that it was made in 1988.

I have just wired up a replacement harness that I will insert once new pickup covers arrive this week so I will have a chance to look at the electronic and see if this sheds some light on the subject of the manufacturing date.

I have details on over 30 MIJ EB35s in a database that I am compiling and there are no clear conclusions to support the current conventional wisdom on the dating issue (let alone factory origin).

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on June 14, 2010, 07:24:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by catscratch
I have details on over 30 MIJ EB35s in a database that I am compiling and there are no clear conclusions to support the current conventional wisdom on the dating issue (let alone factory origin).



First of all, I agree wholeheartedly that we all we can say for sure is that we can't say anything for sure.

Secondly, AWESOME!! Thanks for taking it to the next level. Seeking a consensus and a central source of info was my intent, but without your dedication. Thanks.

I agree that the theory 8xxx equals '88 is thin at best. But I see no ties to Matsumoku, the earliest HB's consistently were string through, and Yamaki definitely was making guitars with the narrow wing headstock in the early 80's at the same exact time that Matsumoku was.

Sad, I met Rudy and talked with him. No one is closer to the factory selection and import history than he, save the person in AP cutting the checks, who is loooooong gone. I don't know that we'll ever move past reasonable conclusions. But you are for sure forcing the issue. Thanks again.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: doesthiswork on July 08, 2010, 09:39:52 AM
[i]A few things we know confirmed; 6 digit serials were used in 82 and 83 after that from 84 to 88 there seems the be a serial number mystery of 4 digit beginning with 8xxx, we feel sure that the first 2 digits on the serial cannot represent the year because Tio Kimo has an HB-35 non string through with the serial 81xx, using the 2 digit year logic it would make his guitar a 1981 year model, the problem there is that 1981 models were string through. It  could be his guitar is a 1981 prototype however that is speculation on my part. That also raises the question if there were any 82 or 83 prototypes.

On MIJ factories we have yet to find a confirmed MIJ factory for the HB-35.

If anyone has a 4 digit semi hollow-body especially the HB-35 serial 85xx, 86xx, 87xx or even a 6 digit serial 84xxxx, 85xxxx, 86xxxx, 87xxxx 88xxxx, please chime in and tell us what you know about the origin of the guitar.

The 89xxxx serial has been confirmed I have one and another has one. Was there also a 4 digit serial in 89 and later.[/
i]

Hi. My first reply - so I hope I am doing this right.
The number system is certainly confusing My HB35 is 911112, wine red, block inlays, MOP headstock silhouette W , washburn tuners, looks like headstock is angle spliced, switch, V&T knobs and socket on lower bout. Does this help in your quest? Since I have had it, I refretted, changed caps and made all brass saddles because 1 of the originals snapped. It is a reasonable guitar except that it has uncontrollable feedback with a bit of gain.
Cheers, G

 


Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on July 08, 2010, 09:59:06 AM
you're doing it right. Welcome to the forum!

Does yours state a manufacture location at all? With that Serial number, it certainly indicates it as a '91, could still be Japanese OR Korean.

sorry to hear of the trouble. Were the pickups addressed when you had the other work done? Did the feedback emerge AFTER the caps change?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on July 08, 2010, 11:49:41 AM
 looks like headstock is angle spliced

That sounds like Korean. I can't recall seeing a Japanese with a spliced neck-headstock. But a lot of Korean companies build this way.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on July 08, 2010, 04:20:15 PM
if you mean a scarf joint, that's what my #8148 is. VERY well done, I had to look closely, but it is a scarf joint.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on July 09, 2010, 07:49:46 AM
 a scarf joint

That's the name. I couldn't think of the name at the time. I've never noticed one on a Japanese guitar, and I've owned a few. I've seen a scarf joint on many Korean guitars, from many companies.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: ncmreynolds on July 09, 2010, 09:07:53 AM
quote:
I've never noticed one on a Japanese guitar, and I've owned a few.


I'm surprised, they're very common. On my KC90s they're obvious, on my G2V and RR2V they're less obvious because the joint runs into the headstock not under the neck.



2 EC29s, 2 KC90s, NX3, G2-V, RR2-V and a whole load of Indies
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: doesthiswork on July 10, 2010, 04:51:38 AM
Hi. Tio Kimo and others. There is no sticker saying made in XYZ. The feedback has always been there with higher gain.
When I replaced the caps and did other work, I didn't have time to pot the pickups but I may give that a go.
Melting wax into the pickups and letting them sit till there are no bubbles seems to be the next step but a little time consuming - and smelly :)
Failing that I may find some replacement pickups - like SDs. Not sure which ones to go with at the moment though.
Cheers, G
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on July 10, 2010, 11:25:37 AM
The feedback has always been there with higher gain.

That's usually the case with hollow body, and semi-hollow body, guitars. Hollow body guitars are worse. The center block helps some. Making the guitar similar to a solid body. But, high gain usually induces feedback. You might move the amp around, or try standing away from the front of the amp.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: doesthiswork on July 12, 2010, 09:25:13 AM
Hi nogin007. I don't mind feedback if it's controlable. The feedback is sudden and uncontrolable. I usually am right in front of a small amp to get feedback when required :) I would like this option with the HB35 too.
Cheers, G
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: ncmreynolds on July 12, 2010, 10:02:06 AM
quote:
Originally posted by doesthiswork

Hi nogin007. I don't mind feedback if it's controlable. The feedback is sudden and uncontrolable.


Sounds like microphonics, perhaps you will end up having to pot your pickups. I had this with an Epiphone V I owned and I ended up swapping them out as I already had some nicer ones lurking around.



2 EC29s, 2 KC90s, NX3, G2-V, RR2-V and a whole load of Indies
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: doesthiswork on July 20, 2010, 08:59:07 AM
Hi ncmreynolds. Yes, microphonics are what I am facing. Currently looking at DiMarzio 36 Anniversary pups. Not sure to go with covers or bare. Either are potted and have to be better than stok pups :)
Cheers, G
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on September 13, 2010, 03:48:36 AM
Bump for any new info
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on September 30, 2010, 09:22:15 PM
Hey TK,

I see the mystery has not progressed much since I last posted. I've been really busy and just haven't had the time to do any research. This is about the time of the year I begin playing at the festivals so my posting days will likely be short. Perhaps after the holidays I can dig back into this full steam. This past summer my house repairs took all my time and $$$$.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on October 19, 2010, 03:22:34 AM
Hi Guys,

I've been trawling and trawling through the web trying to come across other Japanese made 335's with similar headstocks or features of the mystery 4 digit HB-35's.

What I can gather from all I've seen, there are no headstocks on other manufacturer's guitars that are similar, so we have to assume that they are made to a Washburn design.

Next, the hardware, everything I come across that uses the same bridge style, is Samick made Epiphone Sheratons (And early Samick SAN450's) see here:

**IF THE LINKS DON'T WORK GO TO www.robwesley.com HOST SITE WON'T ALLOW LINKING**

Epiphone Sheraton 1987: http://www.robwesley.com/guitars/listings/Epiphone%20Sheraton%20By%20Gibson%20Natural%201987%20no3/


Epiphone Sheraton 1988: http://www.robwesley.com/guitars/listings/Epiphone%20Sheraton%20by%20Gibson%20Vintage%20Sunburst%201988/index.html


Epiphone Sheraton 1991: http://www.robwesley.com/guitars/listings/Epiphone%20Sheraton%20natural%201991/index.html


As you can see, same hardware, same binding style, same layout, same non vintage correct location of knobs in regard to tailpiece location,
and you could easily get the Washburn headstock to fit inside the boundaries of the Epiphone one if that was the largest headstock size they cut.

If you look at this 1982 MIJ Epiphone Sheraton on you'll notice it has a standard ABR-1 bridge:

http://www.robwesley.com/guitars/listings/Epiphone%20Sheraton%20wine-red%201982/



Also, similar timelines on the MIJ to Korean Epiphone production changeovers, finshing at Matsumoko, restarting at Samick Korea 1987-ish.

The Epiphone 335's made at Terada (1998 onwards) and later Fuji-Gen use all normal ABR-1 hardware and Gibson correct headstocks.

Maybe it was at the start of a changeover where Washburn were being finished in Japan were using Korean supplied materials?

Maybe I'm way off hahaha :)

What do you think??

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 19, 2010, 07:03:38 AM
Hey Brad,
a couple of your links are broken, but I see enough to agree that you found something.

That 88 Epiphone, minus the headstock and the pickguard, looks exactly like my 88 HB-35. Only other difference is the block markers, the Epi stops at 15, but it looks to be a 5 piece. Mine has markers to 19, is a one piece with a scarf joint.

See if you can fix those other links. Cool Stuff!!
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on October 19, 2010, 07:05:17 PM
Links fixed, it's looking more and more to me that the Washburn's follow the Epiphone transition from Matsumoko to Samick Korea.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 19, 2010, 09:17:48 PM
logical conclusions.

first, those two links not ending in index.html give me a forbidden note.

i assume when you say 1998, you mean 1988

so you're thinking that

A) early Japan production is Matsumoku, not Yamaki. Why?
B) by 1987, production had transitioned to Samick/Korea, with possibility of some pieced together guitars from either maker?
C)do you think the 4 digit serials have a logic to them? i.e. 8408 408th guitar of 1988, or 198(8)April (4) 8th (08)

I think this is a pretty key piece to the puzzle. Did you see the Ibanez comments, they look identical, particularly the 5 piece necks. How do you think they fit?

And what is the opinion of that vintage Sheraton amongst Epiphone fans, do you know?

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on October 20, 2010, 04:05:33 AM
Sorry about the links, the guys whose site it is doesn't allow linking, so If you cant see the links I've provided, you can work your way through his site without too much trouble.

Yes, 1988, fixed!

A) Only for the fact that they seem to mirror where Epiphone's were being manufactured at the time,
I haven't delved into the early stuff as I'm not so familiar with it, so it's just a hunch on my part.

B) Same again, there are no Epiphone Sheraton's in the same period, they ceased in around 1982-83, picked up again in 1986-88, coincidence?

C) Hard to say, Possibly the 8 indicated 1980 as the decade, the rest could be a production number (408th off the line) or as you say,
month and number, but I would think they knock out more than 99 in a month, and if you got to November, that only leaves them 9 a month :)

So maybe they put out 999 units then switched to a 6 digit number system?

I saw the Ibanez stuff, 5 piece necks aren't a rarity, they were used by alot of guitar manufacturers at that time.

There are too many similarities between the Epiphone Sheraton's and HB-35's to be a coincidence

A) the hardware, knob layout of the HB-35 and early Sheraton are identical.

B) Binding style (compare it to similar era Terada or Fuji-gen bindings and they are quite different)

1988 Korean Epiphone By Gibson Sheraton:
(http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2277/sherathuk5.jpg)

1993 Terada Japan Headstock:

(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1580/1993teradaur5.jpg)

C) Headstocks.

Samick headstock:

(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/9150/5d61re2vo5.jpg)

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/P1050007.jpg)



That era of Sheraton is highly regarded as far as I can tell, Samick were putting out a good quality product for many companies during the 86-88 period, come the 90's it seems they started to sub-contract their workload to other Korean makers, that's when you start to see the Epiphone serial number stray away from the S (Samick) designation, I (Saein),U (Unsung) etc..

Thoughts?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on October 20, 2010, 07:14:18 AM
I can't remember the exact year, but in the 90's Gibson was working to purchase Samick. For some reason the deal fell through. In the meantime a lot of brands that were using Samick as their builder changed to someone else, as they figured they might be left out in the cold. Samick used to be the largest builder in the world, but after the Gibson negotations they lost that distinction, and never regained the business they lost.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: wmjonson on October 22, 2010, 09:39:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Brad J
[That era of Sheraton is highly regarded as far as I can tell, Samick were putting out a good quality product for many companies during the 86-88 period, come the 90's it seems they started to sub-contract their workload to other Korean makers, that's when you start to see the Epiphone serial number stray away from the S (Samick) designation, I (Saein),U (Unsung) etc..

Thoughts?



The HB 35 I have 88 or 89 (Washburn wasn't sure of the exact year it's marked 89xxxx) was made in Japan (confirmed by Washburn) also the other HB 35's with the Gibson style peghead, like mine, were made in Japan IMO. My 2001 HB 35 was made in Korea and there is a sticker on it stating that fact also there is a tag in the case stating the same, it could possibly be made at Samick. There are no dead give away markings on my 88-89 HB 35 or the OHSC giving a clue where it was made. I have talked to a few techs and asked questions but I didn't learn anything I don't know already. As it stands I am leaning towards Ibanez as the factory. I still think it is possible the 4 digit serials were made at one plant and the 6 digit were made at another.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on October 23, 2010, 05:34:06 PM
Washburn confirmed to me that mine was made in 1982 (s/n 8292) and as we know it those were all string through body setups,
so I wouldn't hold much credence in Washburns dating.

As I've pointed out, there's more features closely associated with the first run Epi Sheratons than anything else, too much to be a coincidence I feel.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 23, 2010, 05:46:20 PM
But those Sheratons weren't string through.....and the early 80's HB's definitely were.

What am I missing?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on October 23, 2010, 10:43:52 PM
What I'm saying is that mine is the same as yours (TK) it looks the same as the Korean Sheratons,
and Washburn told me it was made in 1982 based on it's serial number (8292, so Washburn's dating isn't remotely accurate.

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/El_Dijevieto/Picture105.jpg)

Those around that era (80-83) were all string through, there's a big hole of production in the middle (83-87, same as Epiphone) then Epiphone Sheraton production restarts around 1987 in Korea, and the two guitars are identical bar the headstock.

The 4 and 6 digit hb-35's could well have been made in different factories, but I still don't think they're MIJ.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 23, 2010, 11:44:20 PM
ok, i'm with you on all of that. I understand your logic.

Maybe I missed this before. What is your theory on those early string throughs, if you had to guess, where do you think they came from?
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on October 25, 2010, 04:36:15 AM
At a guess? Where ever the Wing series were made, not having owned any I can't say with 100% surety,
but if you wanted to find out, start by getting pics of tenon lengths and styles, any markings in the pickup routes,
wiring channel directions etc and match them up with other known Matsumoku made guitars and see if they correlate,
after seeing alot of construction methods you can usually narrow it down to the style of a certain maker.

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on October 25, 2010, 06:58:08 AM
You may have seen early posts in this thread from a dude named Racing. He collects early Matsumoku and Yamaki from the early 80's and the issue is that both factories were making wings and A series, and the very telltale signs you mention show up. His theory, as a collector is that they could be as well, but his leaning is Yamaki.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on October 25, 2010, 10:35:32 PM
Yeah, I saw that, I'll leave the early ones up to the experts I think, my work here is done! :)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 13, 2010, 08:00:53 PM
I just picked up what appears to be an unmodified Japanese HB-35. The pots and switches are quite bad and scratchy, although they can be persuaded to work. The construction quality seems fine except for one detail that does not reach the level of quality I expect from a premium MIJ guitar—the cut and finish of the sound holes is sloppy. This is, however, the only obvious quality issue that I have yet noticed.

Anyway, the serial number is strange – 011. It also looks like the numerals were scratched in with an unsteady hand. Perhaps a kid with a pencil had a slow day. [:)] Anyway, does anyone have an idea where it fits into the production history? Although I don't have any information to provide, I can at least provide another data point. [:p]

Other features you cannot see from the pictures below:

This is not a string through. It has the larger Mickey ears and the ES-335 style toggle switch and jack placement. It does not have push-pull pots. It has a 3-ply pickguard. The block inlays go the the 19th fret. There is no volute, and the headstock uses gold no-name tuners.

(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7605/pict11381200.jpg)

(http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/4462/pict11391200.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on November 14, 2010, 05:13:01 AM
Brad.
What i can tell you is that none of the Epis in your links are made by Matsumoku.
Lots of small telltales indicate that they are most likely all korean.

Further,knowing a thing or two of the typical Yamaki contracted production of the Washys i strongly doubt that HB of yours being the vintage washburn claims.
What we DO know is that Matsumoku and Yamaki both were contracted by Washburn at the time,but within the rest of the series they made it seems that the consensus is that Yamaki made the higher end ones.
Yamaki made guitars from what i´ve seen being very easy to distinguish by their bridgepiece.
Hardware seems to have been the same no matter the manufacturer.

(http://www.102983.org/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/normal_5%7E48.JPG)
For the sake of reference i´ll again post a couple of pics of what we KNOW to be Yamaki made guitars.
Daion being Yamakis housebrand in the same manner that Westone was Matsumokus.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_5%7E45.JPG)

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_10%7E33.JPG)

First up is the latest MkXX i picked up.
Asolutely stock and in mint cond.(Read-what you see is how it came from Yamaki)
Second up is a Daion 555 Headhunter of mine.
Check to notice the similaritys with a HB of the era.

In the links(Epis) you put up,for instance...
The jap never used hexagonal nuts for pupswitches.
Mat never used that kind of bridge.
Asf asf asf.

If you would shoot a closeup of the bridge that would help to place that HB of yours though.
Likewise if you could use a small mirror or similar to shoot a pic of the wiring,and if possible the caps for the tone controls.
Likewise.
Most likely,if you lift the neck pup there will be one or two philps headed screw to aid the setneck construction for a Mat made guitar.
Mark-most LIKELY.
Pup wiring in turn will be either grey or diareea brown.
Caps can be either maroon or dull green.
Pots with very very few exceptions will e fullsize and normaly with some kind of lettering stamped on them.

The semis,like the Headhunter above,DO carry braided wire between the pots,switch and outputjack.
Not so from the pups though.

(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_17~14.JPG)
This btw is a typical bridgepiece of a Mat made guitar of the early 80s era.


Guitar is case being an -82 vintage Aria TA70.
(http://www.102983.org/cpg145/albums/userpics/10003/normal_15~14.JPG)

A few notes on Yamaki built guitars in general.
The topcoat used on them(clearcoat)is hard as glass.
It is very common for some reason to see clearcoat flaws in as much that there will be isles where the clearcoat has turned hazed.
When this occurs it is to my finding through and through in those spots affected.
Especially so for the Eagle/Falcons i´ve owned or worked on.
Some of the Daions in turn show the same behaviour.
My black MkXX especially,and almost all of them-both Washys and Daions-at the headstock for some reason.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on November 14, 2010, 05:25:59 AM
Btw.
That headhunter above carries sort of bumble bee caps stock.
Black with white striping.

Might be,as the Yamaki made HBs are semis too,that these will sport the same caps.
Bundle of wires for the pots are held together with ty-raps stock,and the braided wire is in turn insulated with black plastic tubing.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on November 14, 2010, 06:02:44 AM
Another note.
The pots of the Aria,as most other highend Mat semis,carry tin shielding cups as well as braided wire.
Ie;the pots are harnessed in a tin cup to avoid EMI or RFI as best as they could,and it sure works.

Reread the thread and someone complained about feedback issues.
Just wax the pots.
Makes for a tremendous difference.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on November 14, 2010, 09:10:19 AM
Racing, thanks for dropping in. Great info as always.

BNS, your new guitar, but for the serial number (???) sounds exactly like my 4 digit SN pictured at the beginning of this thread. As such, I've concluded it is most likely late 80's Japanese.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 14, 2010, 10:58:48 AM
Hi Tio, yes it does look similar except that I recall you changed out the pots (and their knobs), switch, and pickups (at least the bridge PU), which makes them look different now. Mine also still has the pickguard on it. Yours does have the same asymmetrical f-holes with the big bottoms and skinny tops as my new acquisition.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on November 14, 2010, 03:48:53 PM
well, no, you may be confusing that with my WI67 Idol. The HB is as it was when I bought it, and it's not original.

SOMEONE changed the bridge pickup and pot only, to a SD/MJ/JB older than the guitar itself, and a split volume pot.

The neck is the original Washburn and I suspect the pots, switch and jack are all original as well. The pickguard is long gone.

But to the construction of the guitar itself, yes, your headstock, blocks to the 19th, even the font of the truss rod cover, and the f hole shape, tells me our guitars came out of the same shop.

Part of the odd shape of the holes is the fact that mine has a drastic arch top, which I love. Look at this guitar from the side and you're looking into the cavity, the arch is that drastic.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 14, 2010, 06:06:30 PM
Ah--OK, thank you for the clarification. I noticed that the knobs were different than mine and I ran to an incorrect conclusion. [:o)] (To me, yours look like speed knobs and mine are the top hat style. Mine are also quite dark--a very dark amber/very dark tea color rather than gold. I can take more pictures later if it would help anyone.)

Mine also seems to have less of an arch. Looking exactly from the side and holding the guitar at arm's length, I see 1/2 or 2/3 of the top's thickness on the far side of the f-hole, but the interior of the guitar is not visible.

In any case, I agree that our guitars appear to have the same heritage.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 20, 2010, 11:25:36 AM
Hi everyone. Here are three images taken from my HB-35.

The first two pictures are of one of the tone pots from my HB35. Both are taken under a florescent light and one is taken with a flash as well. Hopefully between the two you can get an idea of the finish. Neither correctly reveals what you would see in person though. At least the markings are reasonably clear.

The third image is a picture of one of the volume pots. Except for the markings and wire colors, it appears physically similar to the tone pot.

(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5061/pict1155683.jpg)

(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3532/pict1156635.jpg)

(http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/4935/pict1157660.jpg)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on November 20, 2010, 02:02:55 PM
looks to me like grey wiring and dull green caps, my friend
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 20, 2010, 05:45:15 PM
Yes, and the fact that the cap markings could be considered silver..as in about gun metal grey as Racing mentioned makes me cautiously optimistic. It could be good news for several of us.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: nogin007 on November 20, 2010, 06:29:12 PM
 and the fact that the cap markings could be considered silver.

Those caps, with the silver letters, are just like some in my parts drawer. They came with some pots I ordered a couple of months ago. They are ordinary, cheap caps.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 20, 2010, 07:21:27 PM
You may be right--but the electronics in the guitar from which those pictures were taken appear to have never been changed. None of the four pots worked much at all when I got it. Strum the strings and no sound would come out unless you tweaked the pot to find a sweet spot that would allow the signal to pass from the pickups to the output jack. I have a strong feeling the owner thought he was pulling a fast one on me to sell me this guitar. The reason I got a chance to shoot the photos is due to my fishing them out to clean them up. (The operation was a success, by the way--the pots work as though they were new.) I am not a luthier, but none of the stuff inside looked like it had ever been touched.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on November 26, 2010, 01:05:02 AM
Hi Racing,

not sure if you understood the point of my posts, but it boils down to this:

It's my assumption that all non string through 4 & 6 digit HB-35's are made in Korea at the Samick Plant,
based on the fact that there are obvious similarities between the hardware used,
pot & switch placement of the Korean Made Epiphone Sheratons and non string through HB-35's.

I don't have the original pots or wiring, but I do remember it having green caps, 16mm pots,
cheap 3 way switch and poly wiring, and the tenon isn't screwed in ala' Mat. style
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on November 27, 2010, 07:00:45 AM
Yup Brad.
We´re in agreement-with a twist cause the rest of the boys question marks are valid.
It might very well be that some of the lost yrs HBs were indeed made in Japan.
Question in that case is by whom.

Those pots in the pics above are NOT Yamaki or Mat.
That much i CAN tell.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 27, 2010, 10:43:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Racing
Those pots in the pics above are NOT Yamaki or Mat.
That much i CAN tell.


Thank you Racing. I was hoping you would add your comments. I primarily posted those images for you. [:)] It seems the mystery continues. The conclusion I am drawing from this is that a third manufacturer is involved for the 1980s instruments.

If such is the case, this brings us to another question: is the third manufacturer Japanese or Korean? (And of course, who is it?)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on November 27, 2010, 11:35:18 AM
BNS, can you post a pic of which of your HB35's those came from?

As for the mystery manufacturer. I remember feeling that the Ibanez semi's were dead on copies of the Washburns, both in headstock shape and the neck manufacture.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: boynamedsuse on November 27, 2010, 02:01:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Tio Kimo

BNS, can you post a pic of which of your HB35's those came from?

As for the mystery manufacturer. I remember feeling that the Ibanez semi's were dead on copies of the Washburns, both in headstock shape and the neck manufacture.


Hi Tio, the pots and caps are from the black HB-35 initially posted about 40% of the way down page 7. In other words, it is the one that resembles the one in your first post.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on December 27, 2010, 05:53:23 PM
I think your point with latter 80's models being Korean is a good one, Brad J. There are also the no-serial #'s(post '84), with the volute. I propose these are Yamaki as most of their acoustics(Washburn and Diaon) from this period had a similar volute.

Also, the more I look at photos of Mat-made guits, the more I'm thinking that the string=thru's are not Mat. ATM, I'm thinking they do indeed resemble Ibanez/Greco of the period, as Tio pointed out.

Thanks guys for keeping this thread going. We'll eventually figure it out.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Racing on December 28, 2010, 01:32:26 PM
All Yamakis i know of carry serials. No matter if they´re acoustics or electrics. No matter is they say Washburn,Yamaki or Daion.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on February 02, 2011, 11:40:25 AM
Another fine example of a mid-80's with the diamond volute. Interesting details in the sellers post too.

http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-WASHBURN-HB35-made-JAPAN-/320650074706?pt=Guitar&hash=item4aa83bda52
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on February 02, 2011, 02:37:40 PM
that's a sweet guitar. I'll be interested to see what it goes for.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on February 21, 2011, 12:43:31 PM
Anyone in or near Houston?

This one appears to be an 88xx model. Disregard the disinformation in the description?

An excellent price though.

http://houston.craigslist.org/msg/2215564271.html
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on July 15, 2011, 01:03:49 PM
For those of you still enjoying the confusion.....

I was perusing the bay, looking for older Japanese guits and stumbled again upon an HB-35 with that funky diamond volute. Apparently the owner pulled a pot and decided, based on the serial of said pot, that the guitar was a 1987.

All fine and dandy but....Having reread BradJ's post on page #6 with all the Epiphone links, I'm now seeing the similarities in the Early Samick-built Sheratons and these 'mystery year', volute HB35 models.

Here is a near-perfect example: This is supposedly #001, the first built be Samick. Check out #'s 002 and 003 too. All 1987.
http://www.robwesley.com/guitars/listings/Epiphone%20Sheraton%20By%20Gibson%20Natural%201987/

and

http://cgi.ebay.com/1987-WASHBURN-HB35-made-JAPAN-/320720457885?_trksid=p4340.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%252BC%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D5%26pmod%3D320703630021%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D1275376203113872424

To summarize: Here are the obvious similarities.

1)identical Bridge and unique-sized Tailpiece.
2)nearly identical no-name tuners.
3)similar 3-ply binding.
4)Hex nut on pickup selector switch.
5)Same nobs.
6)Pickguard mounting bracket(on #001 it's different but #002 on, the same)

As an aside, notice the scarf-joints on the Sheraton. Familiar? The 5-piece necks?

Thanks BradJ. This does form a new hypothesis. Maybe Washburn did move production to Korea at the same time as others. c1987.

FWIW, those early Samick-made Sheratons do have a good rep. Perhaps workers from Mat, as well as materials just relocated?
4)
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on July 15, 2011, 01:12:44 PM
ah, nearly forgot:

7)Identical fret markings, ending at 15th fret.

Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on July 15, 2011, 01:58:44 PM
And...

8)Both have the rarer black-colored nut.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on July 21, 2011, 03:19:45 AM
Thanks Nico, good work on the details.

I can say with 99% certainty that any guitar with that same non ABR bridge will have come out of Korea,
you see it on alot of Samicks from that era also as noted before.
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: t.y. on July 21, 2011, 11:29:42 AM
Tio Kimo, this is the guitar I was going to buy.when I had the money.this seller was a smart a## , and I did not buy it.wish I had though. I would of gave him 550.00 for it. back then 500.00 did not reach the reserve. when I asked, what was the least he would take? He responded, that was like asking me how much I would pay, and for me to just go ahead and bid, and see if I won. Tom. P.S. Nico, second guitar there I mean. A couple of post up.[:)]
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Brad J on August 01, 2011, 02:52:20 AM
Hi guys, I came across some pics of my HB35's insides i thought you might be interested to look at.

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/El_Dijevieto/HB35/IMG_6429.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/El_Dijevieto/HB35/IMG_6436.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/El_Dijevieto/HB35/IMG_6431.jpg)
(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/El_Dijevieto/HB35/IMG_6432.jpg)


Brad
Title: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: phino on December 28, 2011, 10:04:03 AM
hi everybody, here's some pics of a HB that I can't date.
there is something wrong with the bridge (strings through)

http://img.mercatinomusicale.com/pics/1909985_1294075929.jpg

http://img.mercatinomusicale.com/pics/1909985_1324398786.jpg

what do you think?

best regards
alessandro
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: phino on January 15, 2012, 09:25:54 AM
hi mok that was just a guitar i was thinking to buy. but i didn't.

I 've another HB 35 S with the sycamore top.
I asked to washburn and they tell me it is a 1997 korean.
serial number S7026XXX

here some pics with new SD'59 zebra, new electronics and CTS pots log.

(http://i46.servimg.com/u/f46/13/36/96/49/dscn1910.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=54&u=13369649)

(http://i46.servimg.com/u/f46/13/36/96/49/dscn1911.jpg) (http://www.servimg.com/image_preview.php?i=55&u=13369649)

bye
alessandro





Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on January 24, 2012, 06:58:31 AM
Hi folks, here's a quick pic of an early one, no serial anywhere on this. One piece Wing neck, with abalone inlay, and a through body string plus bridge.
(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn153/46traveller/DSCF0311.jpg)



http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn153/46traveller/DSCF0310.jpg

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn153/46traveller/DSCF0305.jpg

My thoughts.............. Probably made between 80--83 Matsumoku Plant.
Glad to hear from anyone with more info.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on February 03, 2012, 09:03:39 AM
that sure is a beaut, Cornish. That Abalone inlay on the headstock is really something. What a unique model. I wonder if it may have been a prototype with the unique bridge and finish. Two things I've never seen. The ears have the slight point of the later models.....really interesting.

How does she sound/play?
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on February 04, 2012, 05:00:50 AM
Hi Tio, just to add to the info, the seller reckons purchased early 80 as a "One Off" which back then meant prototype, or special unclaimed order. I've sent mail to a few older friends and a couple of music sites who may have some info, but as yet no replies. It would help if I could find out "For Sure" the first year Washburn started production of the series for general release.
Been busier than I would have liked over the past week but got a couple of hours playing in. It's all good, smooth mellow to Jazz and beyond, through my Line 6 amp. Visiting a friend next week who has a small studio with Marshals etc, so that will be interesting. I've yet to re-string, but I may find out more when I take the pups out, I have no idea what make they are, but they sound very SDish, there could be a clue written under there. All will be revealed (or not) then. 8)
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on February 07, 2012, 10:20:19 AM
Just cleaning and setting up, thought a couple of detail pictures may help. Nothing written, no sign of a date stamp anywhere on this.

(http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn153/46traveller/DSCF0312.jpg)

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn153/46traveller/DSCF0314.jpg

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn153/46traveller/DSCF0315.jpg

Nearly forgot, it's fitted with a Leo Quan "BADASS" Bridge USA Pat 4,089. 733  Made In Germany.

http://i303.photobucket.com/albums/nn153/46traveller/Picture_011.jpg
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Tio Kimo on February 09, 2012, 12:13:47 PM
ore and more completely unique characteristics! And a wooden pickguard! Really fell into it CB. congrats again!
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: jimf on March 02, 2012, 09:48:55 PM
I have what the factory says is an '81. I bought it new in '82.
It has the strings-thru-body and the narrow headstock.
One thing it has no one seems to have mentioned is push-pull volume pots that switch to single coil when
pulled out.
I'm not sure how to post a pic or I would have.
The serial number was super hard to find. It is under heavy finish on the back of the headstock.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on March 03, 2012, 03:09:00 AM
Hi jimf, most of the folks use photobucket to add pictures, it's free and relatively simple to use. As I state in my post I have searched just about everywhere for a serial, to no avail, also my model has no coil tap facility. So many questions about these guitars, every bit of info is welcome. Have you ever checked the pickups for manufacturer, and looking through the soundhole, does your neck go through with a further piece of wood underneath to allow for the arched top and rear? Does it have a MOP inlay on the headstock, or the usual wing type gold colour ?
It would be great if you could post some pictures, if you've read all of this thread you know how much interest there is on this particular model and who made them. We hope to see some pics soon.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: jimf on March 03, 2012, 10:50:53 AM
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/th_DSC00786.jpg) (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/?action=view&current=DSC00786.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/th_DSC00786.jpg) (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/?action=view&current=DSC00786.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/th_P1010141.jpg) (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/?action=view&current=P1010141.jpg)
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/th_Grain.jpg) (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/?action=view&current=Grain.jpg)
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: jimf on March 03, 2012, 10:53:17 AM
(http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/th_DSC00785.jpg) (http://s27.photobucket.com/albums/c200/Oledude4/?action=view&current=DSC00785.jpg)
There she is dirty. Everything is original.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on March 04, 2012, 02:35:34 PM
Oh, very nice indeed, another proud owner of "One of the nicer 335's". You've definately answered one of my Q's, they were rolling production in 1981 on this series, in which factory, nobody can say for certain. One thing is true, they could certainly put guitars together, I feel privileged to have one.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: jimf on March 04, 2012, 04:23:00 PM
The split coil pots are worn out and the frets are fairly worn from all the years.
I'm playing a Peerless Renaissence Custom now. It's completely hollow and the
fit and finish is on a par with the HB
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on March 04, 2012, 06:14:41 PM
Oh yeah, another fine name "Peerless" , They used to make guitars for Gibson and others back in the day. I've not had a chance to play any of their instruments but they have a good rep amongst players in the UK, as a fair price, great sounding semi. Listened to a couple of demos on you tube, very nice guitar with attitude thrown in should you wish to be heard. But come on, you'll never forget the way the Washy sounded when you first bought it. Hell you've worn the frets out playing it, (All guitars should have stainless frets: period:) There's a few years of life left in the guitar, give the old girl a treat, crackle and pop your way through a nice slow blues number. Cheers.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: jimf on April 02, 2012, 06:31:17 PM
Just read this. I found the serial number, but it was hard.
I'll check and get back to you.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on June 15, 2012, 04:07:13 AM
About time this thread had a bump, maybe someone out there has more information on the Japanese made HB 35s.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: jimf on August 22, 2012, 02:00:51 PM
Took the old girl out ('81HB35) the other night and was stunned at how resonant it was. It was terribly easy to get the guitar to feedback the note I was holding and wanted, even more so than a Gibson 330 hollowbody type guitar I use.

I played it 5 nights a week in bars back in the 80s and I don't remember it being this responsive. It has a powerful sound along with the resonance.

Another surprise was, being in bars so many months on end, when I opened the case which hadn't been opened in a while, the smell was almost that of a new guitar. No smoke smell at all.

I was considering selling it and a couple of other guitars I seldom use to buy a Music Man Luke. As of this post, she is off the market.

I know it is 31 years old, but can it heal itself like that? The answer must be 'yes'.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on September 09, 2012, 04:32:44 PM
Nice one mok. My string-thru(832846) looks fairly identical to yours.

The exceptions would be the pickups(at some point they switched to Dimarzio look-alikes with 2 adjusting screws on the bass side) and the serial # ink(mine is grey= easy to read). Also the tuners are a bit different but with the same decal.

I recently searched the neck for composition. It's maple and quite likely 3-piece though pretty hard to tell. Very similar to Mat-made Epis of that era.

Fwiw, your selector switch is similar to mine but definitely not the same. Also, in looking through the f-hole, I'm seeing 2 philips-head screws, not the back/threads(reversed?)

Hopefully soon I'll have an '81 also in which to compare. I'm currently theorizing that maybe the 81xxxx's were made by Yamaki and, like the wing series, switched to Mat in '82. ??

Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Nico on September 09, 2012, 04:38:15 PM
Anyone near Lexington(Ky?)?

_http://lexington.craigslist.org/msg/3161922187.html

Another no-serial, diamond volute mystery HB-35. Nice tailpiece! No price.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: King of the Stuntmen on September 17, 2012, 06:48:56 PM

 Well, it's been a while since I've been on the forum but I just spent an enjoyable few minutes catching up via this thread.

 I can't contribute anything other than some old pics of my HB-35. She was given to me by a friend who used to be a pawnbroker, and as best I can tell she's all orginal.

(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/kingofthestuntmen/Mystery%20HB-35/DSCF0092.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/kingofthestuntmen/Mystery%20HB-35/DSCF0077.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/kingofthestuntmen/Mystery%20HB-35/DSCF0074.jpg)
(http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/kingofthestuntmen/Mystery%20HB-35/DSCF0084.jpg)


 More here - http://s42.photobucket.com/albums/e334/kingofthestuntmen/Mystery%20HB-35/

 Got a proper camera now, so I should maybe take some better pics.

 KotS
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Washbob on December 29, 2012, 01:27:10 PM
Hey, All - After spending a few weeks perusing all the pages of this thread, and trying to make some sense out of all the info here, I thought I'd throw in my two cents' worth and add some data to the accumulated pile.  Also seems like activity has slowed to a trickle, so thought I[d bump it and see what else comes up...

I recently acquired an HB-35 which, near as I can tell, is a 1990 model.  Per the info presented previously, this should be toward the tail end of the Japanese run; however, many of its characteristics sound like the early Korean models.  It has a six digit serial number with no letter prefixes; however, something that I've not heard from others is that the first three numbers are stamped, while the last three are hand-written.  It also exhibits most all of the shape and configuration characteristics of Washburn's current models as far as headstock, horn shape, switch and plug location, etc.  Definitely has a scarf jointed headstock, and relative to Racing's comments (I think...) the tuner alignment is all over the map  (i.e. not the precise alignment typical of a Mat...).  The frets are pretty high, too, which someone said was typical of the Korean models.

Anyway, I've played exclusively acoustic for the last 30+ years and am just getting into the whole semi-hollow body electric gig, so have a lot to learn.  I enjoyed sorting through all the info previously presented, and hope this might help round out the picture a bit, as the early nineties models seem to be the least represented here.

Cheers, and Happy Holidays!

A few pictures are here:  http://s29.beta.photobucket.com/user/rmo59/library/Washburn%20HB-35?#/user/rmo59/library/Washburn%20HB-35?&_suid=135680675288709811414092387689
(if someone can tell me how to attach them directly I'd do that, but all I get when I try the attachment buttons is two sets of brackets with img/img in them...)
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: t.y. on December 29, 2012, 01:56:59 PM
Wow, shes a looker. Hope this helps.   Tom.  :)  http://forums.washburn.com/index.php/topic,21807.0.html
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Washbob on December 29, 2012, 09:20:18 PM
Thanks, Tom.  I actually saw that post just after (of course...) I uploaded my post.  So I went back and tried to edit the message to add the pictures that way, but for some reason Photobucket doesn't behave that way for me.  It appears they've recently reworked their format, so don't know if that changed things or not...
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: t.y. on December 29, 2012, 11:51:01 PM
(http://i1152.photobucket.com/albums/p499/thomasyonts/th_KGrHqUOKo4E25wQGVymBN3ZE65VyQ0_12.jpg) (http://s1152.beta.photobucket.com/user/thomasyonts/media/KGrHqUOKo4E25wQGVymBN3ZE65VyQ0_12.jpg.html)   Still the same.  Tom.  :)   I use Win, 7 home prem.   :)   :) 
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: t.y. on December 29, 2012, 11:57:04 PM
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/rmo59/Washburn%20HB-35/th_IMG_6705_zps41fa55e7.jpg)[/U(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/rmo59/Washburn%20HB-35/IMG_6708_zps773b3b3b.jpg)RL]    (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/rmo59/Washburn%20HB-35/IMG_6704_zpsc3721c0f.jpg) (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/rmo59/Washburn%20HB-35/IMG_6702_zpsf0361400.jpg) (http://s29.beta.photobucket.com/user/rmo59/media/Washburn%20HB-35/IMG_6705_zps41fa55e7.jpg.html)
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: t.y. on December 30, 2012, 12:06:35 AM
Here you go. Pictures are important for future searches :)  :)  (http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/rmo59/Washburn%20HB-35/IMG_6712_zps8f8ab295.jpg)
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Washbob on December 30, 2012, 01:41:10 PM
Super!  Thanks.  I'll have to play with it some more to see what's going on.  I'm using same OS, but it's been over a year since I'd logged into my Photobucket account, so am not familiar with their new format.

BTW, the other thing I like about this guitar is that the "Washburn" inlay on the headstock doesn't have the registered trademark symbol after it, like a lot of newer ones (and some older ones, apparently) do.

-B
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Zander99 on June 02, 2013, 03:03:47 PM
Hello everybody,
got this HB-35 to my birthday.
I don't have any idea from which year this guitar is and i wold have a kind of description about material and special feature.

Sorry for my bad English.
Pics says more then words:

(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/8278/dsc02253k.jpg)

(http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7512/dsc02254k.jpg)

(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/50/dsc02255kv.jpg)

(http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/2374/dsc02256kp.jpg)

(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1443/dsc02257k.jpg)

if i wrong here some Moderator plz move it in right thread
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Washbob on June 03, 2013, 12:09:12 AM
That bears a striking resemblance to mine!  With a 91xxxx serial number, from what I could tell earlier in this thread (back on page 3...) yours was probably built in 1991, and I'm guessing originated in Korea.  Earlier models were pretty variable in terms of headstocks, appointments, etc., but they seem to have started to standardize with the 1990 model, which has carried over even to the current models.  Nothing special about them that I can tell, other than that it's definitely a nice guitar.  I got mine from a friend who had this Washburn and a 1976 Gibson Les Paul 3-pickup Black Beauty (which is still for sale, by the way...  If anyone is interested, contact me!).  When I had a professional guitarist friend evaluate them, he said the Gibson was a good collector's guitar, but the Washburn is a good player's guitar.  I chose the Washburn.  (Didn't hurt that the price was about $2500 less, too...  ;-)
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: ZG925 on July 11, 2013, 01:52:01 AM
New to the site. I just picked up J6 today at Salvation Army. It is fantastic shape although the pick guard is missing. Serial number is 8066. From what I'm reading that would make it an 88 Japanese made.? It has a 5 piece neck and is the sunburst color. If there is any additional info needed please don' hesitate to ask.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Raudy on July 22, 2013, 08:35:30 AM
Hi guys, just joined this site a I've been trying to research details about my HB35 I'm trying to find out the age of my HB35 and if it's MIJ??  It has the old authentic label inside the f hole that says 'George Washburn, hand crafted in the Washburn tradition of Chicago'.  It gives me the model number, but surprisingly it doesn't have a serial number at all! I've looked all over to try and find one somewhere but no luck, and it's not a case of it being faded away either. So I'm curios to know if I have a MIJ model or not!? Any help here would be very much appreciated!!

It's red in colour that you can still see the word grain in, the headstock doesn't have the trademark symbol as the new ones do,  and tapers inward at the top  rather than bulking outward.

I'll try to upload a pic soon for you all

Cheers

Raudy
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on July 22, 2013, 03:59:12 PM
Hi Raudy and welcome to the forum.
Looking forward to the pics, sounds as if you have an early model with a "Wing Series" neck, and Dots Not Splits as fret markers. If so,made in Japan is a good guess.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Raudy on July 25, 2013, 05:37:25 AM
Thanks Cornish boy!!

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Raudy79/media/189_zpscd1de373.jpg.html?sort=3&o=16

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Raudy79/media/193_zps076f7683.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12


Hopefully these links work so you can have a look at it! Let me know if it doesn't!

Cheers mate

Raudy
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Cornish Boy on July 25, 2013, 12:56:25 PM
WoW, that's different, erm, it's only a guess but with a Wing series neck, and a wrap round bridge it looks to be Japanese, but it could have been made on the cuff of a factory change, and the builders put together what they had in stock at the time. There are a few of this sort of build going round, which is what got this thread going in the first place, nobody knows for sure, and it could have been put together either by Matsumoku or Yamaki. It looks a real nice guitar, and the older models just seem to have a quality about them which (IMHO) can put much higher priced models to shame. Anyway wish I could be of more help, recommend (if you haven't already) that you read the thread from the start. It gives you an idea of the fun we're having trying to find out about this era of Washburns history.

Happy Hunting.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Raudy on July 25, 2013, 08:39:27 PM
Mate thanks so much for checking it out, yeah it's an absolute ripper to play!! So nice, and easy to slide up and down the frets with some great action and a bright amazing sound to it that rivals most guiitars I've payed!! :)

I've had a look through this thread and at the start one of guys posted up a flyer of a few of the washburns and in that flyer is my HB35, I think they said the flyer was from 1989 so I I'm guessing that it's from that time frame but without a serial number it's hard to guess what it's actual date is, also a bit strange that it doesn't have one, but what you've pointed out about them changing factories makes a bit more sense.  So really appreciate you checking it out for me, it's been a really good read through this thread!!

If anyone else can help us shed anymore light on my model it would be great.

Cheers

Raudy
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: richphen on January 15, 2014, 02:19:55 AM
Hay Raudlem- I have a HB35 identical to yours with the same problem- no serial #.  Don't feel alone.  Here's a question - if there is no serial number does the guitar exist ?   I'm guessing that these hybrids are late 1980's. 
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: Mbechmann on April 20, 2015, 04:47:37 AM
Sorry for reawaking this old thread. There is just to much good information here to not comment on  :D

First things first. The first generation of the HB35 looks to have an almost identical bridge to the Daion Headhunter and it is the same string through design. The serial numbers also match in style and design. These would have been build on the Yamaki factory.

In early 84 when Daion went under we suspect that it took the Yamaki factory with it.

In the next couple of years after that Chushin was building instruments with 4 digit serial numbers. They also build for Terada.

At some point between 84-88 everything from Yamaki got sold to Korea. We know this part because the Daion brand continues to be sold from Korea after 84. We suspected that it was Samick that bought everything (including parts, brand, blueprints, and machinery) so this is a confirmation that it very well could be.
The serial number style is the same from Yamaki to Samick - which means that the SN machine from Yamaki could have been sold to Samick. They also build instruments very very similar to the Yamaki line.

Add that to the mix that they did indeed sell the Daion instruments its is a very very very good chance that Samick build the HP35 after 88 or so.

Anybody able to confirm this with facts? TK maybe?
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: PermissionToLand on November 30, 2015, 04:30:46 PM
Hi, I ran across this thread and thought I could offer some info. I've been researching Samicks and from what I know, I'm fairly certain the HB-35s you're talking about were made in Korea by Samick. The biggest clue is the extra wide bridge that is only found on Samick products. Also, the Schaller-style tuners with the brand name ink-stamped on the back; classic Samick trademark. Then there's the headstock shape; strikingly similar to the shape used by Samick, first on Hondos, later on their own Artist Series.

(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h11/suicidehummer/HDDCS%20no%20inlay_zpsbepasdwh.jpg)

The extra-wide bridge on a 1988 Epiphone Sheraton made by Samick:

(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h11/suicidehummer/88%20Sheraton%20VSB%203_zpsre9wn0kx.jpg)

The only quirk is the four digit serial number. Typically, Samick would use a seven-digit serial, although around 1990 they were pretty inconsistent as they were changing to a new code. I haven't gone through the whole thread so I didn't see any pictures of the serial numbers. Where are they and are they ink stamped, stickers, etc?

This one (the red HB35) as well is probably made by Samick, based on the bridge, oversized pickguard and triangular TRC.

(http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l58/tiokimo/HB-35/1989-HB35HB50HB60.jpg)

Samick's 335 copies had pickguards that reached the bridge until about 1990:

(http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h11/suicidehummer/89%20SARC%20302%20proven%202_zpsv3xciuu8.jpg)

Samicks (especially from the '80s) are often mistaken for Japanese guitars because of the build quality, and their semihollow models are considered some of their best work. I own an Artist Series 335 copy and it doesn't disappoint, even next to my Custom Shop Gibson.

I'll keep reading through the thread and see what else I can find.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: PermissionToLand on November 30, 2015, 05:43:58 PM
Thanks Cornish boy!!

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Raudy79/media/189_zpscd1de373.jpg.html?sort=3&o=16

http://s1292.photobucket.com/user/Raudy79/media/193_zps076f7683.jpg.html?sort=3&o=12


Hopefully these links work so you can have a look at it! Let me know if it doesn't!

Cheers mate

Raudy

So this has the Samick trademark bridge, pickguard and TRC. The pyramid volute is something I know Samick has done before (in fact, the model I've seen it on was made in 1989 as well).

Then there's this picture somebody posted of the guts, which is definitively Samick IMO, the small pots, green gumdrop caps, box switch with ink stamped numbers (sadly no date on this one, just the month):

(http://i49.tinypic.com/2ebxwsp.jpg)

Ahh, now I see the serial from that one (had to open the picture in a new tab). So it's ink stamped on the inside label. A common style, but also very common for Samick. Typically, the first number is the last number of the year. So say, 8552 would be a 1988. 552 could be the production number. Although Samick made tens of thousands of guitars a month, this could have been a more limited run (thus warranting the unique serial number). I would have assumed the four digits were all a production number if they didn't all seem to start with an 8.

This one here is indeed a 1990. It's very common that the ink stamped serials would fade, or were just very lightly stamped to begin with. I'm guessing the owner write down the rest of the number before it faded entirely.

(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c259/rmo59/Washburn%20HB-35/IMG_6708_zps773b3b3b.jpg)

Oh, I almost forgot, the tuners being badly aligned was common with Samicks as well, and I see that on these models.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: lone wolf on March 29, 2016, 02:09:27 AM
Hi,
     I have never seen a HB35V either. Some of the long time members might have seen one. How long have you had your 82. Would love to see some pics of all three together, when your third one arrives.  I hope you grow to like the cream color,so you won't be tempted to do a color change. Great Guitar.

                    Don
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: lone wolf on March 29, 2016, 03:29:24 AM
Hi,
    I looked on google and found a Washburn ad I had seen before and didn't look closely at. Has the vibrato model.

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/catalogs/early_80s_fullline/80s_full_line_pg6_web.jpg.html

    Also found this ad in Switzerland.

http://www.anibis.ch/it/musica-strumenti-chitarre-,-accessori-elettrica--2354/guitarre-electrique-washburn-hb35v--14267790.aspx

 I saw the 82 the night it was posted on ebay in early January and got sidetracked. Got on ebay the next morning and you had already bought it.

 Is the incoming one from Florida?
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: lone wolf on March 29, 2016, 03:58:13 AM
  I'm glad you got it. I got sidetracked and as you know, you can't get them all. The ones in Florida were more than I wanted to spend and the one at Sam Ash was a little rough. I really would like to find the DL model. One will show up eventually.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: lone wolf on March 29, 2016, 02:56:59 PM
Yep, A lot of the Washburns from the 80s have great quality for the price. I just started looking for a DL in the last couple of months. There were two in Europe, one for $450 and the other for $800. Some sold in the US last year between $500 to $700. The one in Florida is much more than most  would pay.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: lone wolf on April 06, 2016, 12:25:51 AM
Hi,  Sorry to see you removed your posts. I was looking forward  to seeing the Family photos.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: bigcity2 on April 06, 2016, 05:59:56 PM
Nice looking HB-35s !
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: lone wolf on April 06, 2016, 07:12:44 PM
Thanks for posting the pics. The twins are gorgeous and the cream looks great since you cleaned it up. I  hope you have decided to not paint the cream.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: lone wolf on April 11, 2016, 12:42:03 PM
Thanks For posting. I saw it last night and decided to pass.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: psp742 on May 10, 2016, 08:26:19 PM
Hello ET Music,

I think your T-bird is same as mine which isn't the deluxe model... Deluxe has binding.  picture - https://reverb.com/item/991763-1982-washburn-sb-8-t-bird-deluxe-cherry-burst-wing-series-mij-japan-matsumoku-factory-rare-set-neck

more information - http://www.g3h.be/wings/tbird.htm

Information chart
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1984%20Washburn%20Wing%20Tbird%20Brownburst%20MiJ%20SN%20840037/Washburn%20Specs_zpsb84dnbhe.jpg)

pictures of my T-bird Vibrato Brownburst S/N: 840037
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1984%20Washburn%20Wing%20Tbird%20Brownburst%20MiJ%20SN%20840037/DSC_7645_zpsel6ffaag.jpg)

(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1984%20Washburn%20Wing%20Tbird%20Brownburst%20MiJ%20SN%20840037/DSC_7649_zps2iiuxxbq.jpg)

(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1984%20Washburn%20Wing%20Tbird%20Brownburst%20MiJ%20SN%20840037/DSC_7668_zpszqcbepdv.jpg)

(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1984%20Washburn%20Wing%20Tbird%20Brownburst%20MiJ%20SN%20840037/DSC_7709_zpse5sehk7r.jpg)

(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1984%20Washburn%20Wing%20Tbird%20Brownburst%20MiJ%20SN%20840037/DSC_7720_zpsmszwkvsd.jpg)
I paid $220 includes shipping, this guitar has some issues like paint chips and numerous scratches, has shielding issue (hums) and crackling pots.  TLC: i fixed the paint chips, cleaned the pots (use contact cleaner to remove dirt and grime, pots are noise-free now), rechecked the wiring and resolder, put shielding paint in the control cavity and switch cavity (guitar is silent as can be), although nothing wrong with all fret (just first 4 frets needed work) i had Jescar Gold EVO frets installed, note since T-bird came with plastic nut (which is ok but could improved) so I had it upgrade to Allparts brass nut.  I was thinking of whether I should put push-pull pot for coil-split (i have coil-split in my other humbucker equipped guitars, decided to leave this as is) .. Now, this lady rocks and croons depending on your touch and play.

Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: psp742 on May 11, 2016, 06:47:06 PM
thanks for sharing the picture of your T-bird Deluxe... you're right the binding doesn't show in the first picture you share...  BTW, since you own one, is there two push-pull pots for each humbucker..  volume pot is a push-pull coil-split for bridge and volume pot push-pull coil-split for neck humbucker, this allows more possibilities...  I just want to verify what the original wiring is like in a T-bird Deluxe..

With the T-bird i chose the Jescar EVO-gold is second to stainless steel in hardness..  i had the frets on my Idol WI64 and Maverick BT6 upgraded to stainless steel.. really smooth and easy to do bends.

Like i said i coil-split individually my guitars with dual humbuckers.
Washburn Maverick BTM mini red... i also have blue
(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1998%20Washburn%20Maverick%20BTM%20mini%20MiK%20SN%20I80043620/1998WashburnMaverickBTMMetallicRedMiKelectronics3_zps3addd2eb.jpeg)

(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/1998%20Washburn%20Maverick%20BTM%20mini%20MiK%20SN%20I80043620/1998WashburnMaverickBTMMRwithupgrades5_zps72e4d7ea.jpg)

(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/Double%20Trouble%20Washburn%20Maverick%20BTM%20mini%20twins/DSC_5737_zps5737974f.jpeg)

(http://i1339.photobucket.com/albums/o720/Alaric89/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20Alaric%20Tins%20MacBook%20Pro/Washburn%20Maverick%20BT-6%20metal%20flake%20black%20MiK/DSC_7328_zpsnj6ta2hl.jpg)
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: psp742 on May 12, 2016, 10:22:11 PM
ET Music, do you have sound clips or youtube videos of your guitar?  i am not very good at playing..  tlc and maintainance and mod.. yup.. playing = poor
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: psp742 on May 15, 2016, 09:18:52 PM
there is a t-bird on ebay for under $200..  its almost over.. hope someone here gets it.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/381624700979?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: PermissionToLand on July 08, 2016, 12:43:11 AM
Also, I'm going to say Korean production started as early as 1985. There are G Series models with Samick's serial format going back that far. And on this '86, you'll notice the routing for the Sharktooth inlays are too big at their points, a common sight with Samick builds (apparently their router just didn't have a fine enough bit), as well as their DiMarzio Super II copy with three adjustment screws:

(http://www.everythingsg.com/media/86-g-5v-4.1246/full)

Also, by 1987, we see neck plates with a recessed, textured black background, another common trait of Samick builds.

So in summary, there is no doubt in my mind that all HB-35s and maybe even all Washburns after 1984 or so were made in Korea by Samick. Japanese HB-35s had string-thru bodies and were made exclusively by Mastumoku, as was the rest of the line at that time from what I see.
Title: Re: MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
Post by: PermissionToLand on July 08, 2016, 06:10:33 PM
You could be right, I don't know much about Japanese guitars. I just went with Mats because Washburns of that era are listed on matsumoku.org:

http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/wing/wing.html