Username: Password:

Author Topic: Truss Rod nut missing?  (Read 3761 times)

Offline ixo1111

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« on: April 24, 2010, 11:49:12 PM »
I recently bought a C104SCE used and have loved it. Yesterday I started to hear a buzzing sound that came from neck. I read that adjusting the trust rod can solve the problem. I went to adjust the trust rod and noticed that the there was nothing to adjust. It seems to be just a threaded rod that is there. I don't fully understand mechanics of the trust rod but it seems if I got a new truss rod nut it would fix the problem. I tried to take a picture with my camera but not sure if it really shows anything.

http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/7/img1871x.jpg
 

Offline YerDugliness

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2692
  • Pearl, TX jams at: www.pearlbluegrass.com/
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2010, 10:26:56 AM »
Looks like somebody has buggered with it before you bought it.  There ought to be a head with a fitting for a 6-sided hex key on the end of that rod--as I look at your photo I see damage to the underside of the soundboard under the fretboard as well as to the area where the head of the truss-rod ought to be, and the metal rod itself appears to show evidence of having had the head broken off.  I do not believe that there was ever a nut on that rod, only a head that appears to now be broken off.  

There is one other possibility.....I do know that many custom shops are installing a non-adjustable graphite rod into the necks of some of their classical guitars to reinforce the neck and hopefully avoid any movement of the neck in the future.  However, this is a very high $$ custom shop option and to my knowledge Washburn does not do this.....but I could be wrong.

I'd suggest a call/email to Washburn's customer service department.  Since you bought the guitar used, Washburn will not offer any warranty service, but they may be able to shed some light on the issue and at least you will know where you stand.

Any chance the seller might confess to his previous transgressions and refund your $$???

Good luck, please keep us posted.  I have seen very few classicals with adjustable truss-rods in their necks and own a C124SW, a slightly more expensive Washburn classical produced at about the same time as your C104SCE.  Right now it is almost 1,000 miles from me so I cannot look into the body to see if it has any adjustment mechanism, but I would doubt it.

Dugly [8D]

YerDugliness, Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL, retired & attempting to age disgracefully!!
Washburns: WD32S, WD32SW. D61SW, and C124SW
Other fine guitars by Breedlove (custom shop Revival Series 000), Darren Hippner (#506), Takamini (2005 LTD), Epiphone Masterbilt (AJ500RC), and Yamaha (G231-II)

YerDugliness, Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL 8) !!
Back to work & attempting to age disgracefully!!
Washburns: WD32SW, D61SW, C124SWK, WMJ11S, WMJ21S (2) and WGO26SCE
Other fine acoustics: Breedlove custom 000 Revival, Darren Hippner #506 Hauser, Takamini 2005 LTD, Epiphone Masterbilt AJ500

Offline Rocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4457
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2010, 11:10:22 AM »
Someone used the wrong sized allen key on it.

Offline vheissu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2010, 03:03:55 PM »
If you definitely want to fix it, you could always try one of these:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/Special_tools_for:_Truss_rods/Truss_Rod_Rescue_Kit.html

However, this *IS* quite an expensive fix. Is there definitely no way of fitting some needle-nose pliers inside, slightly opening them, and turning? This is definitely not ideal. But it should d the job, and hopefully you'll only have to do it the once.

Ben

Offline YerDugliness

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2692
  • Pearl, TX jams at: www.pearlbluegrass.com/
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2010, 03:28:20 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by vheissu

If you definitely want to fix it, you could always try one of these:

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/Special_tools_for:_Truss_rods/Truss_Rod_Rescue_Kit.html



Ben, I looked at this kit and don't think it will work.  The illustrations show the entry point for the repairs to be on the head, where many steel string guitars have a cover plate that is removed to access the nut with which the truss-rod tension is adjusted.

The OP's guitar is a classical and there is no cover plate on the head.  His photo shows a view of the neck-block area inside the body of the guitar.....many Washburns have a captive nut at the top of the neck to which the truss-rod is permanently attached and the adjustment to the truss rod's tension takes place with an allen-head key/wrench inserted through the soundhole on the guitar's top.  

Rocket might be right about the allen-key socket on the head of the truss rod having been mangled by someone using the wrong size key.....I've looked at it over and over again and can't tell for sure if it's mangled or if what we're seeing is the remnants of the rod after the head of the truss rod was broken off.  That's some pretty severe damage to the wooden parts of the guitar where the previous attempts were made, though [:0] !

ixo1111, are you in the U.S.?  No infomation on your profile.......

Dugly [8D]
YerDugliness, Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL 8) !!
Back to work & attempting to age disgracefully!!
Washburns: WD32SW, D61SW, C124SWK, WMJ11S, WMJ21S (2) and WGO26SCE
Other fine acoustics: Breedlove custom 000 Revival, Darren Hippner #506 Hauser, Takamini 2005 LTD, Epiphone Masterbilt AJ500

Offline vheissu

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 852
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2010, 04:31:22 PM »
All acoustics I have seen have been an allen key at the base of the neck on the inside, without a plate. Maybe I just haven't seen enough. I figured that might work, that was all. I don't know much about the product, just knew it existed. I shouldda re-read the description before posting I guess [:p]

Yeah, theres some pretty severe damage, hence why I suggested pliers on the INSIDE of the head, rather than trying to grab the outside with pliers,  risking more damage to the guit. It looks like it couldn't withstand too much more.

Anyway, surely there is an acoustic version of the tool I linked to SOMEWHERE? Guess I'll go searching.

Ben

Offline ixo1111

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2010, 06:25:46 PM »
Thanks for all of help so far. I draw a diagram what I think is going going on. This is a side view of what I am seeing http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1958/trussrod.png . This is a diagram of what I think would work as a fix  http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9180/trussrodfix.png . Don't worry I'm not planning to do this tonight I am just wondering if it would work.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 07:45:46 PM by ixo1111 »
 

Offline YerDugliness

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2692
  • Pearl, TX jams at: www.pearlbluegrass.com/
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2010, 07:28:20 PM »
quote:
Originally posted by ixo1111

Thanks for all of help so far. I draw a diagram what I think is going going on. This is a side view of what I am seeing http://img248.imageshack.us/img248/1958/trussrod.png.


Try again, please....when I try to open the link, all I get is this:

404 Not Found

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

nginx/0.7.64

As for whether your fix would work or not (that link did open), I'd say perhaps so....and if so, perhaps the device Ben proposed would do the job, just from the other end.  It all depends on whether or not that original head is there, with just the allen-key socket stripped out as Rocket suggested, or if it has been broken off and will allow you access to the threaded part of the end of the rod.  If you think about trying it, though, I'd suggest you measure the thickness of the neck-block and proceed carefully--go too deeply into the neck-block and I can see you putting too much pressure on that part of the guitar's body and perhaps ending up with cracks.......and, keep in mind that the hole you have to make in the neck block will need to be of adequate diameter to accept the nut AND whatever sort of tool you intend to use to tighten it (I'd suppose a socket of some sort)....so measure the OD of the tool that cuts the wood and make sure there's room for the socket.

What an interesting conundrum.....I'll have to check and see if my C124SW has a truss-rod or not.  I've looked at the neck block, but not put any sort of mirror in there to investigate that high up/close to the soundboard. I will be surprised if there is a rod in that neck, though, as the neck on my C124SW is a laminated neck and it wouldn't make any sense to compromise the strength of the center rib.

Dugly [8D]

YerDugliness, Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL, retired & attempting to age disgracefully!!
Washburns: WD32S, WD32SW. D61SW, and C124SW
Other fine guitars by Breedlove (custom shop Revival Series 000), Darren Hippner (#506), Takamini (2005 LTD), Epiphone Masterbilt (AJ500RC), and Yamaha (G231-II)

YerDugliness, Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL 8) !!
Back to work & attempting to age disgracefully!!
Washburns: WD32SW, D61SW, C124SWK, WMJ11S, WMJ21S (2) and WGO26SCE
Other fine acoustics: Breedlove custom 000 Revival, Darren Hippner #506 Hauser, Takamini 2005 LTD, Epiphone Masterbilt AJ500

Offline YerDugliness

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2692
  • Pearl, TX jams at: www.pearlbluegrass.com/
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2010, 07:58:38 PM »
OK, now your first link works....is the end of that rod really broken off 1 below the face of the neck block?

If so, you really don't have much thickness left in the neck block to machine away.  If your diagram is correct (and I don't doubt that it is), the head that was on the truss-rod is broken off.  That head would have had a face on it, sort of like a washer, that would have been pressing on the face of the neck block.....see the problem here?

Tough call.....I'm almost inclined to say I'd think the guy who sold it to you needs to refund your $$ if that's possible.

Let us know how it works out, please.....this is a new one for me!!

Dugly [8D]

YerDugliness, Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL, retired & attempting to age disgracefully!!
Washburns: WD32S, WD32SW. D61SW, and C124SW
Other fine acoustic guitars by Breedlove (custom shop Revival Series 000), Darren Hippner (#506), Takamini (2005 LTD), Epiphone Masterbilt (AJ500RC), and Yamaha (G231-II)

YerDugliness, Esq./Post No Bills
Guitar Playin' FOOL 8) !!
Back to work & attempting to age disgracefully!!
Washburns: WD32SW, D61SW, C124SWK, WMJ11S, WMJ21S (2) and WGO26SCE
Other fine acoustics: Breedlove custom 000 Revival, Darren Hippner #506 Hauser, Takamini 2005 LTD, Epiphone Masterbilt AJ500

Offline mcloud10

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 09:25:06 AM »
Rocket is right.  Someone used the wrong size/type of tool on that Allen head.  My C104 is just like this (except not stripped out).  It is recessed this way.

Options?  I'd file down an Allen wrench until I could fit it inside the damaged head, then try to adjust it.  On my C104, barely ANY tension needs to be adjusted at all because of the low tension of nylon strings.  If it is a two-way truss rod, you may be able to get the desired neck relief by backing off until slightly tensioned.  

Its important to state (as many, many posts have) that this rod is not to be used to adjust your action height.  Neck relief is not much, and this relief is in the neck itself, not the neck-to-body relationship.

If your action is low, you would probably be better to raise the saddle height a bit.

Mark

-------------------
'73 Washburn W240
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical
'89 Washburn C10N Classical
'73 Sivertone Model 319
'85 Ibanez DCL St.Chorus
Rocktron Compressor
DiMarzio Acoustic Pickup
Peavey Backstage Amp
Lots of Smiles ;)
-------------------
'71 Yamaha FG-300 (in restoration)
'73 Washburn W240
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical (Son's)
'10 Washburn WC150SW Classical
Washburn Rover RO20 Travel Guitar
Behringer ACX450

Offline Rocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4457
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 11:39:48 AM »
quote:
Originally posted by mcloud10

Rocket is right.

An ultimate aphorism... stands without stating!

Offline mcloud10

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 336
    • View Profile
Truss Rod nut missing?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 11:51:59 AM »
Leave it to me to state the obvious. [;)]

-------------------
'73 Washburn W240
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical
'89 Washburn C10N Classical
'73 Sivertone Model 319
'85 Ibanez DCL St.Chorus
Rocktron Compressor
DiMarzio Acoustic Pickup
Peavey Backstage Amp
Lots of Smiles ;)
-------------------
'71 Yamaha FG-300 (in restoration)
'73 Washburn W240
'08 Washburn D10SCE
'08 Washburn D10QBK (Son's)
'09 Washburn C104SCE Classical (Son's)
'10 Washburn WC150SW Classical
Washburn Rover RO20 Travel Guitar
Behringer ACX450