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Tio Kimo
Advanced Member
1322 Posts |
 Posted - 09/13/2009 : 08:48:30 AM
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Hello all,
Hoping to get some input from those folks who are familiar with the output of the Matsumoku factory and Washburn's in particular. I know there are fans of the solid body wings and A series, who may not be as familiar with the HB-35's.
Older HB's are often coming up for sale, and their origin is always hazy, due to MANY variations within the eighties...string through vs. tone-pro style bridge, wing vs. Gibson style bound headstock, 4 digit serial #'s vs 6 serial numbers...and lastly, where they were built.
I've read that Matsumoku ONLY built solid body electrics for Washburn. does any one know if this is true?
Here is a link to a site which is trying to be comprehensive in it's info about Matsumoku...It clearly does not show the HB as one of the guitars that were made for Washburn...
http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/washburn.html
So...what gives???
One reason I'm trying to get to the bottom of this is that I've seen listings on ebay where the seller clearly and emphatically states the HB for sale is made by Uncle Mat...and is asking over a grand for the guitar...I'm thinking he's full of it...but I could be wrong.
Thanks for the help.
my HB...
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 10:59:09 AM
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I hear ya.
As a vivid member of matsumoku.org i at least have come to take notice of the current "uncle mat fever" thatīs seems to be on the rise.
Letīs just say that in the recent year the asking prices of the genuine article seems to have gone up 100%.
Especially so with the Aria and Washburns.
We see more and more claims of given guitars to be made by matsumoku,and what makes it hard to distinct is that in some instances these claims are correct.
In short,by far of all Uncle Mats productions has yet been referenced.
Hence,you should to this day regard the pages of the "library" of matsumoku.org as guidelines more than anything else.
When it comes to the washies made by Yamaki and Matsumoku i for one at least think that some of them are downright world class,top notch gutars by any measure.To the point of pure custom shop stuff.
However,to determin whatīs Yamaki/Mat and whatīs not can sometimes be a harder than it looks,and itīs IMO not really until you pick the axe apart and ontop of that carry a certain amount of knowledge of these guitars that things become certain and evident.
In the case of the HB above my answer on both counts would be no though.
Main reason is that the logo and headstock form canīt be found on any of the other Yam/Mat Washies-right off the bat.
http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/catalogs/early_80s_fullline/80s_full_line_pg6_web.jpg.html
You can clearly see how these HBs share inlays,headstock form,hardware asf with the highend wings. |
Edited by - Racing on 09/13/2009 11:11:10 AM |
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 11:07:00 AM
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Btw.
I recently picked up a Washburn W24BBR-V super tele.
Upon examination this axe shows more and more signs of being yamaki.
BBR för black/black/red,and within that series of guitars we for instance also find the A20BBR.
Good friend Oscar just bought one of those,a BBR-K(for kahler altho it sports a wonderbar)and that axe no doubt is a setneck Uncle Mat to our findings.
Nother friend,Torbjörn,in turn owns an A20 that he suspects to be Yamaki too....and nother friend Tommy owns an A20 that we both suspect to be Uncle Mat.
So.
What gives here,and can really any basic conclusions be made?
Sorry...but nope.
Not as far as weīve concluded at least,and hence which is which seems to be a point of disecting guitar per guitar.
Build quality and attention to detail of the Yamaki guitars in general tho seems to be a notch higher.
NOT better guitars than the Uncle Mats,but they indeed seem to be put together more with that "last touch" in mind.
The bindings of my Yamaki made Eagle for instance are made out of separate pieces of brass coupled with mahogony.
Now...the brass of the neck could basicaly be used for a straight edge if need be,and the general attention to detail of the axe simply doesnīt come out until you play around with it IRL.
A "super build" in my book.. |
Edited by - Racing on 09/13/2009 11:09:20 AM |
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 11:15:29 AM
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Iīll go on.
Neither the HBs or for instance the HM guitars are speced as Mat by the "library".
What i CAN tell you from own experience is that some HM series guitars with 100% certainty was made by Matsumoku.
Ie,again...dont read into the specs to the letter.
Judgement is called for. |
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Tio Kimo
Advanced Member
1322 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 12:49:14 PM
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| Racing, are you aware of Matsumoku making semi hollow or hollowbody Jazz style guitars for anyone, Washburn or otherwise? |
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Tio Kimo
Advanced Member
1322 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 1:03:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Racing
In the case of the HB above my answer on both counts would be no though.
Main reason is that the logo and headstock form canīt be found on any of the other Yam/Mat Washies-right off the bat.
http://www.matsumoku.org/models/washburn/catalogs/early_80s_fullline/80s_full_line_pg6_web.jpg.html
You can clearly see how these HBs share inlays,headstock form,hardware asf with the highend wings.
Good point. to that end, look at this flyer from '89, long after the Matsumoku plant had burned down....
You see the -35 with the classic "round ears" and the wing style head stock, and right next to it, the HB-60 with the "gibson" style headstock. At this point in time, Yamaki was still a manufacturer, and had been building Acoustic Washburns for years. I've heard it said that 35's were built Japan through '92.
So I'm going to take a leap, since Yamaki was making acoustics from the late 70's for washburn, and the HB style is of a manufacture more similar to an acoustic than to a solidbody..wouldn't it have made sense for Washburn to have it's solids built in one shop, and it's "hollow's" in another?
But, on the other hand, Racing states that he is aware of solids being built by Yamaki, so it could go either way?!
thoughts?
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 2:10:54 PM
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Absolutely.
Matsumoku made several semis.
Vantage,Aria asf.
For Aria they even made a model called FS,which something as obscure as a neckthrough semi.
Have had the pleasure to try both the FS750 and the FS1000 Aria Pro IIs and those are for sure highend jap guitar craftsmanship at the highest level.
I donīt know where that rumour that Matsumomku burned down origins,but for all we know this is NOT true.
Matsumoku closed shop due to economic reasons in 1987.
Ie;bankrupcy
That the semi Washies depicted would be japanese of orginins...donīt be so fast to conclude that-altho it might very well be correct.
At the time lots of hardparts were shipped to the at the time up and rising Korea to have complete guitars manufactured.
These "early" Korean guitars often of rather high quality and build.
This holds true for the Aria production as well-seing the semis then... |
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 2:13:07 PM
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Speaking of which.
Couple of easy things to check are the pots and the caps.
Take the lid off at the back and write the numbers down.
Check what colour the caps are.
Not conclusive by far,but if they are the "wrong" colour and markings they aint uncle mat for sure. |
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 4:33:03 PM
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Hey racing what color are the caps suppose to be, what lid are you talking about?
Tio Kimo; Maybe we should also focus on the label colors and designs of all Washies of the MIJ years. The label on my 01 Korean HB-35 is certainly different my 89? HB-35.
I will continue scanning eBay and Craigslist looking for original owner HB's maybe some useful info will be stated and I will ask questions.
Do you know when they changed the head stock designs, perhaps they used both designs but at different factories. |
Edited by - wmjonson on 09/13/2009 4:43:53 PM |
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 5:12:28 PM
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| TIo Kimo; that ad you posted states Mahogany neck on the HB-35, I suspect mine is Mahogany but that head stock I've never seen on an HB-35 that I can recall except on a string through. All of the older HB-35's I have seen post string thru models have the Dove Wing style headstock. I can see the research needs a lot more work. Surely there must be someone that can shed some light on the mystery since it wasn't really all that long ago. |
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Gitfiddle
Average Member
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 09/13/2009 : 10:39:04 PM
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Tio Kimo .. (I am the guy with the Washburn J6 with ser #8839)... interesting discussion and I amd definitely curious about the origin and genealogy of my guitar. Really and excellent guitar
quote:
When it comes to the washies made by Yamaki and Matsumoku i for one at least think that some of them are downright world class,top notch gutars by any measure.To the point of pure custom shop stuff.
THAT is how I feel about my Washburn J6.
I want to share something with you. I used to work for Gibson over at 7373 Cicero Avenue in Lincolnwood, Il in 1956 and so was very familiar with their quality (incredible standards -- every guitar perfect). BUT whoever made this Washburn J6 guitar did exactly that kind of a guitar and I have owned it and played it all these (21) years. I don't think THEY could make for the price I paid new (I did not realize the factory burned down) They guitar is world class (and I just played a 4 hours session at a La Jolla pool party and they all were raving about the guitar (my music) and the band.
Earlier in the afternoon I had lunch with my daughter and son in law and I asked them NOT to give the Washburn or the Hamer to my grand son before he was 25 because I do not want them trashed. I have no intention to sell them. I have four acoustrics .. he can have my washburn D10 or my Tacoma DM10 (but not the Gibson J-100 until he's 25). (I also have a Yamaha FG04-Ltdd) Washburns are EXCELLENT GUITARS .. the J6 is an L5 -- it is a clone.
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 12:05:22 AM
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Welcome Gitfiddle, are you the original owner of your Washie? The reason I ask is because there is some question on the first 2 digits of the four digit serial numbers being the year built. Can you post some pics of the J6?
A few things we have determined is that six digit serial numbers were used on string through HB-35. then there was an unknown period of time that four digit serials were used then the six digit serial reappeared, like mine 899xxx. Tio Kimo's HB-35 serial is 81xx, his guitar certainly is not an 81 model as they were string thru models. Perhaps the serial has nothing to do with the year and is only the production or work order number. For instance if the first 2 digits are the year then it leaves serial numbers for only 100 guitars a year, about two a week being build which would be small production.
On another note about gibby's I had a 2002 Les Paul, the bridge was installed 3/32 too close to the fingerboard and had to be moved back before it could be intonated. Dan Erlewines book on guitar repair addresses this and it was a common problem according to him. |
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Gitfiddle
Average Member
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 12:47:25 AM
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My Serial number is J6 space 8839 and the tag says In the Chicago Tradition -- but I deduce is was made in Asia. Pictures:
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/J6three.JPG
http://members.cox.net/ppitt1/paulJ6NP.JPG
The guitar is a lot prettier than the pictures show .. the two bands I play in are Swing Street and the Saints -- and the song books are on the shelf. LOL. Notice the tailpiece is a Gibson L5 type tailpiece and the fretboard is a copy of Gibson and really nice .. beautiful. The pearl seems to be real pearl and also beautiful. The toggle switch is oin a different location than the L5. Ove the years I have had several "set ups" and I had the frets "dressed" once .. probably will get a fret job at some point and I am thinking about SD SH55 Seth Lovers -- all of that about $500 (but to me the J6 is priceless so I do not care about having a newer guitar -- I like this one. I have a newer guitar (Hamer Newport Custom Pro -- wow .. that's perfect .. that is a dream) http://www.hamerguitars.com/pics/models/NEWPROCRRG_sm.jpg BUT very expensive. I prefer the tailpiece to the Bixby or the LesPaul bridge on a hollow body because the stress is transferred top the end. A thrill to play it.
SO here are TWO incredible electric guitars. I have asked my daughter not to give them to my grandson until he is 25 so they will not be trashed. I am not planning on "leaving" any time soon and I will not sell them (be sure of that).
My gut feeling is that guitar prices are going to quadruple as the dollar crumbles.
Any opinions abolut Seth Lovers?
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Edited by - Gitfiddle on 09/14/2009 12:49:36 AM |
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 02:18:13 AM
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Tio/Jonson,my bad about the lid.
Didnīt think semi but solid.
Caps for an Uncle Mat are always either matte green or maroon.Always marked with capacitor value,and the text soon enough sets them apart.
Pots are matte and marked with resistance value and type(A/B),and then sort of a date/serial.The latter not always applicable however.
Pots are also always "full size".None of that mini anything in sight.(Often used on korean axes)
Outputjack is a single prong type-that in turn often loses tension over time.
Insulators for the jack are out of what we over here at least call "backelite"-a composite used since the 50s.
Colour of pup wire shielding are either grey or brownish,often depending on what sort of pup.(Late 70 up to 80s era)
Altho there are a multitude of pups made by uncle mat most of them boil down to being marked MMK followed by a suffix.
MMK more often than not etched and the suffix printed.
There are exceptions to this though.
Like the proto1s that lack any and all markings and for the Yamakis the ones in the wings that mainly also lack markings.
Then thereīs the "early" production that can be marked "F" aso.(early/mid 70s)
The Yamaki pots are often of push/pull variety and these look a little different than the current generic ones.
Again full size.
Yamaki used caps that looked a little different to the Mat ones as well.
Thatīs a short summary that should NOT be taken to the bank due to the most famous sentance of them all with Uncle Mats.
-"Specifications to change without notice"-
Thereīs more "tell tales" for Uncle Mats than that,but let that suffice for now. |
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 03:51:37 AM
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Gitfiddle, very nice guitars you have.
Racing thanks for that info. My HB-35 from what I can see with my inspection cam, has green caps couldn't get a good view of the markings, brownish spaghetti insulation, pots marked 500 k on the side on the back is lettering partially covered by soldering of the ground wire, I couldn't get a good view of the jack, the f hole is to small to maneuver my cam very much. I'll check the pups next restring.
Checked inside my HB-35 again, still cannot make out the caps, the pots are mini's, checked stewmac and all pots they carry for arch tops are the mini. |
Edited by - wmjonson on 09/15/2009 01:05:57 AM |
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nogin007
Advanced Member
USA
1836 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 08:40:31 AM
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| TK, if I were to make a guess as to the difference in serial numbers, I would guess that Washburn changed manufacturers. My Tacoma built D46 Cheyenne has a 4 digit serial, using Tacomas system. Some have posted pictures of their D46's that had the long serial numbers, after Washburn moved production from Tacoma. Of course, that's just a guess on my part. |
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 12:19:01 PM
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Funny seing this thread...
Looks like i just bought me an -83 vintage Washburn Force 4 bass.
Going to be interesting to rip it apart as it shows up.
Speaking of Yamaki,Matsu asf.. |
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Gitfiddle
Average Member
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 4:37:08 PM
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I just had a long discussion with the luthier. I have been searching forums and ads and Wiki for weeks trying to make sure I got the right pickups for my J6 (it's expensive). Well it devolves down to this: IF you were designing the J6 today WHAT would be the right pickups. Well it comes to Seymour Duncan Seth Lover being a choice that is NOT WRONG..
OK dropped it off. $330 out the door -- new SD Seth Lover new covers all set up to spec. Done in about 3 weeks. |
Edited by - Gitfiddle on 09/14/2009 6:35:11 PM |
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Tio Kimo
Advanced Member
1322 Posts |
Posted - 09/14/2009 : 7:59:39 PM
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so, bringing this back around...what do we know.
Racing...do you believe that Uncle Mat made HB's for Washburn? Ever seen em? Ever heard your compadres talking about them? What about Yamaki?
As to the serial numbers...the one facet that was intended to address this issue...there are 4 digit and 6 digit guitars. gitfiddle has a J6 which is VERY similar to mine in finish, with a 4 digit number, bought new in 88. 1984HB35 owns a guitar exactly like minewith a 4 digit number, and he's under the impression it's a Matsumoku. With enough input from owners, we should be able to start to narrow this down.
I happen to own a Yamaki Acoustic from 1981 which has a 6 digit number beginning with 1...
so the question is, what was the system being used by Mat and Yamaki, is there any consistancy between styles and SN's??
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Gitfiddle
Average Member
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 10:12:25 AM
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| I agree with you Tio. The 1988 has the Gibson-like tailpiece and the Korean made ones have a different style of tailpiece. (I view mine as a Gibson clone) The workmanship is fantastic. Without flaw. The sunburst finish is flawless. They guitar is now "vintage." I see so few of them that I think we who own them are less than a few hundred at best. Possibly less than 100. (I said to the luthier yesterday "where do old guitars go?" he said he wonders too -- where do the thousands of guitars sold by GC go? You never see thme again) Do they get trashed? So we own a rare item. (and a superb rare item) |
Edited by - Gitfiddle on 09/15/2009 10:13:49 AM |
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 2:30:30 PM
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Well,what we THINK we have figured out is the serial sequence for the "other" Mats.(Aria/Vantage/Epi asf)
5 digit means itīs a 70s issue,and the first digit denoted what yr.
80s are either 6 or 7.
Now...enter the Washburns.
Would have been easy enough to state that they work the same way,but this is where I will cast my vote and say that is not always true.
Of course the difference between the Yamakis and Mats,but thereīs more to it than that.
The Yamaki Eagles et al seem to follow a given pattern.(Highend Wings)
Thing is that some of the ravens dont.
Iīve even seen them sans serial completely-just with the Washburn logo engraved into the neckplate.
So...honestly...i cast my vote as "dunno".
Take the Force4 bass i just bought.
I happen to know the guy,and he bought that bass before his oldest daugther was born-which was in 86-and if we were to go by the numbers...it would be an 88 as the first digit is an....you guessed it...8 ;)
However,the first TWO digits are 83-which would be conclusive with when the bass i case was bought by Mike.
A system iīve encountered on other Yamaki built guitars.
Then...my BBR super tele,which i suspect to be Yamaki,that carries a serial that starts with a 5...and i absolutely guarantee that no other conclusions can be made from the serial.
My old HM-5 same deal.
As for if Matsumoku made HBs...again,your guess is as good as mine,but i for one would find it very plausible.
Have in mind that it was until quite recently that the highend Wings were denoted as being Matsumoku....until the likes of G3H asf started pulling the numbers.
I guess what iīm saying is that between the two that we KNOW were in bed with each other through Washburn alone...chances are that they indeed were on other guitars than the Wings.
Or,more to the point,most likely even.
Please donīt get me wrong here,cause personaly i couldnīt give less of a flying who made what from that regard(player factor) as they BOTH made fantastic instruments.
Just..history is sometimes interesting. :) |
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Tio Kimo
Advanced Member
1322 Posts |
Posted - 09/15/2009 : 2:50:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Racing
Please donīt get me wrong here,cause personaly i couldnīt give less of a flying who made what from that regard(player factor) as they BOTH made fantastic instruments.
Just..history is sometimes interesting. :)
Ultimtely, I agree. I love my guitar. It's a great player, and I have no plans to part with it. As I said at the start of the thread, when dudes start placing price tags on them of a grand or more stating that are made by Matsumoku...well, I'm curious how that make that statement.
Thanks for the input, Racing.
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 01:37:39 AM
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Tio, A new HB-35 MIC OR MII list for almost a grand. I don't know about you but I wouldn't trade either of my HB-35's MIJ or MIK for a new one. I believe a grand is probably about the right price for the older HB-35's.
Both of my HB-35's are good players and I am completely happy with them. I am not looking to sell but I would like to know the history.
Here is an interesting article I found on Washburns, seems that they used a lot of plants in Japan.
http://www.guitarworld.com/article/washburn_guitars_burning_for_you?page=0%2C0
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Edited by - wmjonson on 09/16/2009 02:34:03 AM |
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Racing
Junior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 03:36:35 AM
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Might be,but the mention of Tarada,Ibanez(Greco-FujiGen Gakki) and Tokai hardly qualifys as conclusive.
As far as i know for instance FujiGen landed their contract with Fender for the JV series in late 80.
Ie;that done they hardly needed/could cope with more business.
..and nowhere is Matsumoku or Yamaki even mentioned.
Got a feeling that article tells us about....nothing.
Altho interesting per se. |
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 11:42:57 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Racing
Might be,but the mention of Tarada,Ibanez(Greco-FujiGen Gakki) and Tokai hardly qualifys as conclusive.
As far as i know for instance FujiGen landed their contract with Fender for the JV series in late 80.
Ie;that done they hardly needed/could cope with more business.
..and nowhere is Matsumoku or Yamaki even mentioned.
Got a feeling that article tells us about....nothing.
Altho interesting per se.
Yes Racing, that was my point both Mat and Yam being large factories it is odd that they were not mentioned if they were building Washburn's. |
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Gitfiddle
Average Member
USA
145 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 11:43:29 AM
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| I just dropped my J6 off at the luthier for SD Seth Lovers .. when that is done I'll have slightly more than $1K in the guitar (since 1988). I'll do a fret job next year ($300). We all get set ups (after hot spells, etc.) what you PAY for a guitar is somewhere between how much it cost to make it and what the seller thinks they can get. What it is worth to you is all in the mind of the beholder (over time). So my J6 is worth WAY MORE than I paid for it. [I never wanted to sell it. (get rid of it) It's been a good relationship over 22 years] |
Edited by - Gitfiddle on 09/16/2009 11:51:17 AM |
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
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Tio Kimo
Advanced Member
1322 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 1:29:51 PM
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seeing that all the 4 digit serials I've seen are 8xxx, I wonder if he doesn't have a bad read on it, didn't print clearly etc, and that 3 is really an 8.
Don't know if others saw the note, Rudy, who toured and chose the factories used in the 80's, just sold US Music (Washburn).
Shame. I sat down with him for a discussion a few months back, I would've just asked the man straight up what he recalls...wasted opportunity.  |
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nogin007
Advanced Member
USA
1836 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 3:35:59 PM
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| I have a D46, Tacoma built, that has a 4 digit serial, and the first number is 3. |
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 6:43:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by nogin007
I have a D46, Tacoma built, that has a 4 digit serial, and the first number is 3.
What year is your guitar? I wasn't aware that Tacoma also used the 4 digit serial. Perhaps that is what the other guy has also. |
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wmjonson
Average Member
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2009 : 6:50:09 PM
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Just a friendly reminder; I notice this thread is getting a little off subject, I think it was created specifically to address MIJ factories and serial numbers. Help us keep this thread on topic, There are other threads more appropriate to post other guitar information.
A few things we know confirmed; 6 digit serials were used in 82 and 83 after that from 84 to 88 there seems the be a serial number mystery of 4 digit beginning with 8xxx, we feel sure that the first 2 digits on the serial cannot represent the year because Tio Kimo has an HB-35 non string through with the serial 81xx, using the 2 digit year logic it would make his guitar a 1981 year model, the problem there is that 1981 models were string through. It could be his guitar is a 1981 prototype however that is speculation on my part. That also raises the question if there were any 82 or 83 prototypes.
On MIJ factories we have yet to find a confirmed MIJ factory for the HB-35.
If anyone has a 4 digit semi hollow-body especially the HB-35 serial 85xx, 86xx, 87xx or even a 6 digit serial 84xxxx, 85xxxx, 86xxxx, 87xxxx 88xxxx, please chime in and tell us what you know about the origin of the guitar.
The 89xxxx serial has been confirmed I have one and another has one. Was there also a 4 digit serial in 89 and later.
We have a lot of question and no firm answers.
Help us unravel the serial number and MIJ factory mystery.
Thanks Members
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Edited by - wmjonson on 09/16/2009 6:51:46 PM |
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Topic |
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MATSUMOKU and the HB-35
